Mortal Mist
Welcoming Boards => Lucid Dreaming Techniques => Technique Development Center => : pj March 01, 2009, 08:45:09 AM
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This idea has emerged from experiences of this past week. Three times now I have been sure I have been laying awake, waiting for the onset of HI or vibrations or something to indicate a transition, only to discover by RC that I'm actually asleep! Here is the most recent experience: http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php/topic,5.msg49576.html#msg49576
So the big question is this; is this unique to me, or is it something we're all missing?
The next time you are laying there seemingly awake while trying to WILD or just apparently having a bad night, try doing an RC every so often. You might just be as surprised as I have been the last three times I got lucid.
Please report any results here!
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I've got no personal results to report, but it's very common for people I've been talking to to mention among their WILD attempts that they were asleep without realizing it and still trying to WILD. Definitely something that seems pretty common.
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I've never actually RC'd in a dream. Not that I can remember anyway. But, when I used to have the time to have naps, I found that quite often thoughts from "real life" or daydreams led to situations where lights didn't work, or doorknobs did funny things, and then I would know it's a dream and attain some level of lucidity -- but I wouldn't be doing a purposeful RC to discover this, it was just by accident during a nap dream. And, there was no obvious transition to the sleep state.
Unfortunately, I most often woke up in those cases.
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I had something similar happen twice in the same night last summer. (Although I wasn't trying to WILD.) I had supposedly awakened, and I wrote down a dream that I just had. Then, out of habit, I RCd and was amazed to find that it was a dream. Normally my dreams have a dream-like quality, but this felt EXACTLY like real life, with no difference whatsoever.
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Ha, this happened to me tonight several times :p Once even inside a dream... I tried to WILD during the dream, and was frustrated that I remain "awake" while laying in the dream bed.
The problem, as Moonbeam said is to do an RC without moving, because if you move while close to a WILD, it might ruin it. Maybe an RC of conjuring images in your mind would work. If you see the images much more vivid than what you expect from normal visualization, then you might be dreaming, and can try another, more active RC.
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I may have just been dreaming about this thread, but I just had two lucid dreams that are seemingly the result of this:
In the first I was lying in bed when a voice (I think it was supposed to be pj's) tells me to wake up to the fact that I'm dreaming. The second time I'm lying in bed when I remember the previous experience and the thread. I check myself and find that I am dreaming.
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So I did some experiments this morning and had two more lucids this way in conjunction with DEILD. I also had another attempt in which my RCs failed. Difficult to tell if they failed for the right reasons or the wrong ones.
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This would certainly be worth a try and I guess that if you are going on and on with the WILD attempt and nothing appears to be happening anyway it would be a good idea to do an RC of somekind!
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pj, the other day I was reading your DJ, in particular the dream you linked to. I was thinking how similar it sounded to some of the dreams I've been having lately. Just like you said:
They start laying in bed, thinking you just woke up--until you notice you floated into the air or have seven fingers or something. I usually float, but once it was the fingers.
Then it's usually like the real rooms, house, yard, etc., more or less, but gets weirder further away from the bed. This has been happening more lately. It is indeed really cool.
How would you describe your consciousness during this? It seems rather different and high level to me.
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Thanks to all who have given this some thought! It is encouraging to know this "rings" with some of you. All the comments are appreciated! There is quite a bit more to the thought behind this, but I'm refraining from posting it here for a bit yet, until there is more awareness and feedback.
@Alex Lou - FOUR lucids from this? And in two days? Not too shabby.
@Namaste - Exactly. I'm now wondering how much lucidity has been wasted laying there in an already lucid state wishing I would fall asleep and get lucid.
@mu - My consciousness during these is so like my waking consciousness that it is difficult to believe I'm sleeping. It is not like coming to lucidity in a dream, though often it transitions to that much lower state of consciousness. Pretty much what you are describing. . . like that one where my house was completely normal until I went into the basement and tried spinning - the basement was where things started getting odd.
@dodobird - I hear you, but at the same time wonder how often that fear of waking never let me come to realize I wasn't really awake at all? The floating test is a good one. There must be others.
@Moonbeam - You've summed up the crux of this realization well. . . wondering how much actual lucidity we might be wasting thinking we're laying there awake when in reality we are asleep and already lucid.
@Hazel - Luminous pointed out how similar this is to False Awakenings, which is what you are describing. In that sense, laying there thinking you are awake would indeed be a "false awake", though we never thought we had slept in the first place.
@folded - Those anomalies really ARE RCs, or become RCs when we pay attention to them. I've had a lot of lucid dreams during afternoon naps.
@wolvendeer - Yes, it does seem common. . . as common as laying there thinking you've failed yet again at WILDing because you are never going to get to sleep or transition.
As soon as you are experiencing HI, find a way to RC. That's the ticket.
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A good way to RC without moving is to try to float upwards.
Also, when I start to see HI and I know I'm heading into a WILD, I sometimes do a kind of RC to determine if I've entered a dream yet, or if I'm still watching HI. I do this by trying to find and see my hands. If I'm still watching HI, I won't have a dream body yet, and when they do pop up, I slowly wave my hands in front of my face and try to fix my eyes on the hand. I can only move my eyes in a smooth motion when I'm *actually* looking at something moving, either in reality or when in a dream. At least for me, HIs aren't *real* enough for my eyes to be fixed on so that they can move smoothly.
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FOUR lucids from this? And in two days? Not too shabby.
It's nothing conclusive, I'm afraid. I probably would have had the two second lucids anyway from the DEILD. If anything it just got me lucid sooner. And I still can't rule out the possibility that I'm just dreaming about this thread.
As soon as you are experiencing HI, find a way to RC. That's the ticket.
Hmm, I'd say RC before HI. I didn't have any visual HI during any of mine.
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Luminous pointed out how similar this is to False Awakenings, which is what you are describing. In that sense, laying there thinking you are awake would indeed be a "false awake", though we never thought we had slept in the first place.
Oh, I see your point. In that case, I've never become lucid from this. I'll have to remember to RC the next time I'm trying to WILD to no avail.
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There is a theory that goes along with this technique. It is only a theory - like any theory, I propose it in hopes that it may be proved or disproved through our effort and experience.
The theory is that all of our non DILD techniques are nothing more than experiences we are having when already asleep. In other words, a WILD is nothing more than us dreaming about successfully transitioning directly from awake to dream, and that it only really works when we are ALREADY fully asleep. Our intention and preparation are incubating a dream. We then dream of success. . . or failure. If this is true, then there is likely no such thing as a WILD. WILDing may really be just another form of DILD, different only in that we are convinced we are awake at the beginning of the exercise. If this is true, then "successfully" WILDing becomes irrelevant.
The trick, of course, is to remember this possibility and find another way to figure out if we are awake or not - to test our state of consciousness when we think we are laying there awake, waiting for something to happen. Perhaps many of those wasted hours of seeming to lay there awake, waiting for transition, are nothing of the sort - and are opportunities just waiting for us to exploit.
Consider two of the oddball WILDing techniques that have seen some success; the FILD and Reverse Blinking methods. Both of these are similar in that they require testing for dream state without expecting a transition.
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Interesting theory... that's definately something to think about.
Not sure if I agree with it or not, though. I haven't had much experience with WILDing, but it seemed pretty real to me the few times I achieved it. Although, so do some dreams, so like you say, it's hard to tell. I'm looking forward to hearing more about this! :D
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WILDing has always seemed quite real to me as well - but likewise so did those times "laying awake" last week seem real.
I've had a lot of success with WILD over the past few years. . . or so it would seem.
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Dreaming the transition - because you expect to experience it and you've incubated it.
It might also explain sleep paralysis and Old Hag - perhaps both of these happen when you are fully asleep and don't know or believe it.
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What I mean is that laying there asleep yet "lucid" and not knowing it could be a most bizarre experience. Perhaps SP and OH are both manifestations of unknown and unexpected lucidity?
I experienced sleep paralysis years before knowing what lucid dreams were. . . but then I experienced lucid dreams as well, and probably right along these lines, as the transitions seemed to happen from laying awake in bed.
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Based on my experiences I have to disagree with you. First of all, the definition of a WILD would be starting sleep in a lucid dream, correct? Sometimes it only takes me moments to fall asleep or slip into SP. There is no gap, no waiting still in bed and anticipating. And if SP is some lucid-like dream without lucidity, then what about lucid SP? I always have full awareness of what I'm experiencing when I have SP. And what about the unintentional WILD? Like the ones I used to have before I ever tried (or even heard of) getting lucid intentionally or knew the term "lucid dream"?
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I'm just getting around to this thread now PJ. Sorry for the late reply.
Yes, I agree completely with the hypothesis here. I think WILDS are a real phenomenon. I believe I have them. However, I have come to believe that the majority of what I characterize as WILDS are probably really DILDS.
Here's how I personally came to this theory ...
Most of my WILDS have me experiencing head and neck vibrations. I can turn this on at will sometimes. Well to me, this has to do with expectations rather than a transitional phenomenon. In other words, I'm already dreaming, I expect something (vibrations) to happen and it does.
I also believe most of my DEILDS fall into this category. I never really truely woke up. They're really FA's into another perceived WILD.
Sometimes the transition from awake to asleep is so incredibly subtle. As anyone who has every been in my DJ knows, most of my lucids start where I left off in my wakeful space ... right on my dream couch.
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Yes, I agree completely with the hypothesis here. I think WILDS are a real phenomenon. I believe I have them. However, I have come to believe that the majority of what I characterize as WILDS are probably really DILDS.
The way that you've tweaked the theory makes it acceptable to me. I could believe that those of us seeking lucidity have DILDs that mimic WILDs most of the time.
I've only experienced the vibrations once and suspected that it was this community's theories about WILDs affecting my HI. And when I used to read people's attempts to WILD on DV they'd all talk about "getting to" SP . . . and it didn't sound much like the real SP to me. But I assumed they were imagining their expectations rather than dreaming.
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The subtle change in wording takes it from the absolute, which is what you were objecting to, Alex Lou. And I agree - I worded the theory a bit too strongly.
There may well be (and probably are) real examples of true WILDing, but if they do exist I believe they are far more rare than we suspect, and that the vast majority of these experiences are really us dreaming about successfully WILDing.
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I believe WILDs are real and true. I know I have them, and I know that there are "gray zones" where I am neither awake nor asleep. When I experience vibrations and other bodily sensations, I know that I'm no longer awake, but in between wakefulness and REM. But, I'm fully conscious and aware of what is going on.
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How do you know though? I mean REALLY know?
I "knew" that I was laying there awake, waiting for transition, until that moment when I found out that wasn't the case.
Let me restate this slightly then, in terms of your objection.
What if the real transition from awake to asleep happens way sooner than we think or are aware of it, and the transitional "signs" we have all come to expect are happening after we are already asleep and laying there lucid but not knowing it?
If that is the case, WILDing is in a sense true and real enough - we've just not been trained to recognize it early enough. That is what I mean by the WILDing we all think we are experiencing not really existing. The actual transition happens completely transparently, then we lay there and wait for those experiences we expect before we believe it.
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How do you know though? I mean REALLY know?
We have no reason to think otherwise. I understand that you do, but we don't share your experiences, suggesting that the frequency of this phenomenon is individual specific. If I'm in the in between state that Lumi describes, and I remember something I have to do or the phone rings, I simply open my eyes. It's not the same as waking from a dream. Nor does it feel like a dream or an FA (I've been thinking about that "gray zone" and closely reexamining it as I experience it in the last few days).
If that is the case, WILDing is in a sense true and real enough - we've just not been trained to recognize it early enough. That is what I mean by the WILDing we all think we are experiencing not really existing. The actual transition happens completely transparently, then we lay there and wait for those experiences we expect before we believe it.
There are misconceptions about how long it should take to WILD. The actual transition when falling asleep only takes a few minutes, max. So that's how long it should take to WILD.
Sometimes I do try to WILD when I'm already in a non-lucid dream. And I'm successful! The transition is quick and effortless. I'm thinking that you dream of laying in bed and waiting during WILD attempts because you're mimicking what you do when awake. If I'm trying to WILD, I'm either successful or I enter non-lucid sleep. I don't wait for them. So if I WILD when already dreaming I end up dreaming of success.
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I hope that we're not done discussing this. It was pretty interesting. And potentially useful.
Although I don't catch myself dreaming of laying in bed when trying to WILD, I do sometimes dream of trying to sleep when I'm having trouble sleeping. I think that's what happened last night. I was just thinking about stuff and waiting for sleep, then I'm woken by my husband coming to bed. I knew that just a moment ago I'd been thinking about the same stuff from when I first started trying to sleep, but it had been an hour and it did feel as if I woke. If I wasn't completely asleep then I was very, very close to it.
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No - certainly not done. I've not been lucid since, and am more than anything waiting for others to think about/comment/share experiences with this one.
WILDing is a proven, viable technique. No matter what ends up being proved out of this, it won't diminish the usefulness of the technique as it has been proved out over the years.
Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) presents a set of tools for analyzing things that work. (NLP is often confused with the incredibly useful techniques that have emerged from from it, but the real heart of NLP is the methodology of analysis.) What we're talking about here is using the NLP tenet of not assuming that everything in a recipe is important or necessary, and systematically working through the elements and variables to see what really matters and what doesn't.
So the questions remain, and an answer to one won't even come close to proving the second.
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I had one of these a few days ago. Sat in bed for about 3-5 minutes before I realized I might be dreaming. This happens to me a lot.
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The trick with this is to find an RC that won't disrupt (or have minimal effect on) the WILD, in case you're genuinely awake.
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This is an extremely interesting concept. I've had long nights where I toss and turn and just can't get to sleep, and I'll 'know' I didn't sleep at all in the morning, but it will end with being woken up by either my alarm or my parents. What if that whole night of tossing and turning was just a dream triggered by the stress of expecting not to be able to get to sleep? It usually seems to happen on the nights I know I have to wake early the next morning for work, and am worrying that I won't get enough sleep, thus causing stress. If it's all just a stress dream...this could open up some huge opportunities for lucid dreaming for me, pj.
I'm going to put this to the test as soon as possible, as I always seem to have trouble getting to sleep. If all that time spent laying awake isn't really time spent laying awake...I'm going to have to drive up there and hug you in person when I get a car of my own!
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Not exactly what pj is getting at, but I had a strange experience last night. Sometime during the night, I dreamt that I had a WILD. I was lying in bed, "awake", when I suddenly felt paralysis wash over me. Then some words appeared in my vision, telling me what to do. Like a WILD tutorial, either from here or DV or it could have been made up (which I think it was). Anyways, it felt exactly like a real WILD. I can't seem to remember what happened in the following lucid though. :(
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That IS what I'm getting at - the notion that some (or maybe many) WILDs actually occur after we are already asleep.
The tutorial presentation was convenient!
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Oh I see, I thought you meant unsuccessful WILD's only.
And yes, it was very convenient, the words were outlined in a fiery purple. They helped me stay calm, and I remember them telling me to be passive about the whole thing.
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I had one sometime last year, nothing scary for me, but I know I wasn't doing anything to try to be lucid.
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I know I'm late coming to this thread, but man, I'm trippin' balls thinking about this. For a long time I wondered if the vibrations were the signal that I had fallen asleep. I have done failed RC's afterwards, but only a couple. If this is true, how do we know if anything is real? I usually spend about 40 minutes trying to WILD, then give up and turn to my side and fall asleep, but maybe I just dreamed that I failed and lost consciousness. I'm just not sure now.
Pic related, it's me thinking about this:
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Woah.
The image really says it all.
'nuff said.
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Ooh, my first thread necro :D
I just experienced my first INRALD this morning, via false awakening. I was having a somewhat sleepless night last night, and waking up a lot, so initially, I didn't think much of it when I "awoke" from my last dream. A somewhat "interesting" ;) circumstance led me to think about the possibility that this was a false awakening. I did notice that, consciously, I felt different. Like the way my brain feels when I'm lucid... but I experience these "shifts" a lot when trying to WILD and I'm always awake (or so I thought :P).
This was a truly odd experience, because in all of my DILDs, there's always a certain way for me to tell that I'm dreaming, regardless of the reality check (which I don't often do, because I don't need to). That way is to check how my body feels. It generally feels a bit floaty or weightless, or even non-existant.
This morning, I had to truly debate whether I was lucid or awake. The shift in consciousness was leaning me towards being lucid. So I decided to get out of bed. It felt exactly as I would if I was awake. Even things in my room looked like it was in order. The only things that actually let me know that this was truly a dream was A) I could barely read my clock and B) I woke up for real to my alarm clock :P
Such a crazy experience, but I have some great notes and references for future WILDs now... it pisses me off to think of how many possible WILDs I've wasted because I thought they would be noticeably different!!
PS: I should've done a nose pinch or something to really prove it, but I forgot :( Will start doing this upon waking ASAP.
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Really changes the way you perceive things, honestly you could be in a dream at any moment and not know it unless you checked.
Even right now when awake, it feels as if it could never be a dream but i've had this same feeling so many times when i had a INRALD
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I have INRALDS quite a bit. Here's a trick one can try.
When you're trying to LD and your not sure if you've transitioned or not, listen for odd or otherwise unreasonable sounds.
If you are expecting to hear them, you just might (e.g. radio left on in the other room, etc ...). Then voila ... lucid!
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Oooh, good tip, thanks DrT :)
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I had what I think was my first WILD experience at 3 AM this morning. I went to sleep at about 9 and then woke up @ 11. I got out of bed and watched TV until about 2. Although I went back to bed at that time, I did not feel quite ready to sleep so I decided to try and have a WILD. (Earlier in the day I read a short e-book called "Lucid Dreaming on Command".) Anyway, I got in position and awaited SP to start. Not sure how long it took, but the SP started along with many sounds and strange body sensations. After some amount of time, the sounds stopped, and I wondered if I was now awake or whether I had just entered the dream world. I decided to roll off the bed and on to the floor. I hit the floor and then propelled myself into the air and towards the wall at the far end of the room. When I reached the wall, like a swimmer I rolled and used my feet to kick off the wall towards the other end of the room. When I reached the other end, the drean dissolved and I awoke. It was unlike other lucid experiences I have had. In a DILD, you become lucid in whatever dream environment you happen to be in at that moment. I would assume, that when you become lucid in a WILD, you are in whatever room your body is lying in. That seemd to make sense and accurately reflects what I experienced.
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Yeah, KeepLeft!
I have rare WILDs, but mine are akin to Moonbeams.
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The names of the techniques get more and more stupid, but you are right: the name fits to your idea :)