Mortal Mist
Community Boards => Guild Hall - general Guild discussion => : pj September 21, 2011, 05:04:45 PM
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I would say you are our natural leader PJ. Someone who is fair, who only will get involved if he knows he can contribute to a solution and who everyone looks up to. You are the leader or at least one of them in my eyes. :angel:
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I would say you are our natural leader PJ. Someone who is fair, who only will get involved if he knows he can contribute to a solution and who everyone looks up to. You are the leader or at least one of them in my eyes. :angel:
He is the master sheepherder :)
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I guess it depends on whether or not we need leaders for what we want to do. If somebody wanting something in particular to happen, they would have to be leader enough to get it going, show other people why it would be good, maintain it, etc. With what we do now, I guess we don't really need leaders. Again, probably a lack of vision or something on my part.
How do we even know what we want to do? Is a lack of coordination directly translatable to mean the membership wants to keep things exactly as they are? The members, who are intended to be the owners, do not really have a voice. Even if a thread gets started over an issue or idea, everybody always seems to be waiting for somebody else to make it happen or at least say with some kind of authority, "Yeah - let's do that!"
(There are exceptions, but they are rare enough to prove the rule.)
I would say you are our natural leader PJ. Someone who is fair, who only will get involved if he knows he can contribute to a solution and who everyone looks up to. You are the leader or at least one of them in my eyes. :angel:
You are most gracious, and I am humbled.
If I am going to continue to wield technical authority and access - those areas where I really have the most to contribute - then I cannot safely be a leader. Even if I could, I just don't have that in me anymore. I'm almost 51 and busy. There's a lot of life away from this place that I intend to live. It is time for others to step into that role - if we are to have leaders at all.
IMHO.
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Right now, the way I see it, we have a few background leaders too.
Moonbeam, Wolvendeer, mu, DrT, Burned Up and, to a lesser extent, AspiR, exert some influence over the community which could be seen as a form of leadership. But I think this is organic and arises from their long stay here at MM and their personality.
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Fully agreed. There are many here who exhibit excellent leadership characteristics and even exercise leadership to a degree.
You are among those, Star.
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I think leadership occurs regardless of whether it is explicitly stated or not. If you look at that definition, anyone who enlisted the help of others to achieve something for MM (or, at least, sought approval from others) was a leader. I once had "project leader" as my title instead of newsletter, and I like this term. MM has had many project leaders.
I would even argue that this is the only sort of leadership that MM is capable of facilitating in its current form. The concept of equal ownership to all members doesn't allow a "leader" in the sense of higher influence or authority, as the term is classically applied (or rather how we often envision it).
Of course if you're a leader frequently enough you'll earn a reputation for it. In that sense we have lots of leaders, heavy hitters, regulars, oldies, whatever you want to call it. Unfortunately I think this disparity can actually be hurtful in the long run. Allow me to explain.
At many forums I've been to there is a group of oldies who have good reputation, high respect, or influence. This is usually naturally due to seniority (specifically the "founders"), or high activity but usually early on. It almost always applies to the "golden days" of a forum when it was doing really well, a time that always seems to be regarded more fondly than the forum's present state.
Noticing this pattern at many forums I tried to figure out what it all means. I realized something about these highly esteemed individuals, or rather moreso the way the forum, particularly newcomers, regarded them. There becomes this sense that they've achieved this status and now that they are fulfilling this "role", the position of highly influential member is no longer available. This is either due to a newer member's lack of belief in themselves through inexperience, or the worry it'll be seen as disrespectful or the fear of "stepping on someones toes".
What I'm saying is once forums establish these leaders (again, whether intended or not - this is a natural progression whether observed or stated or completely unacknowledged) newcomers don't feel as though that position is attainable. Because these leaders are of a "higher order" that has already been established, the natural inclination is that this influence is already reserved.
Unfortunately when the leaders aren't replaced and dwindle naturally due to attrition, and as people continue to gaze at the golden days through rose tinted glasses, therby becoming even less impressed with today, the forum in general seems more and more uninspired, and if the pattern continues the forum will fizzle out.
This is what I've witnessed for many of the forums I've went to. But as I post this I wonder if anyone will make sense of this or if you'll all think I'm completely crazy and this is just nonsense.
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I don't really think we are talking about the same things here. You seem to be applying this to the direction of the content. I'm speaking purely from a "meta" standpoint here. I'm talking about people applying themselves to the community, not forum topic (I'm not really sure where the "pitiful" games tie to this?).
As for past vs present if you look at mu's thread a common repeated concept was what we used to be, I believe even you chimed in a few times in that regard. I suppose my point is I'm seeing some similarities to the perspectives here and other forums I've been to that went through the same thing.
But we do seem to have an accord that the present is more important. What I posted was something of a caution against pointing out how things were better before and focus on making them better now.
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AspiR, the trouble with your theory is that anyone who wanted to lead in such situations would not find any real obstacles (by definition), and in any case would not be themselves deterred. Especially here, where the "oldies" couldn't be less intimidating, and are openly inviting of them.
My guess is there's simply little motivation to lead. Towards what? The oldies that began things were motivated enough to..begin things, whether they had some exact goal, or vague vision. That's what was "golden" about it. Leaders create, and are created by, times like that.
My guess (I can't stand SC; every post I make, there's some stupid phrase like that, that I keep repeating over, and over.. Last post I said "thing" 97 times. :?) is that people are generally happy with how things are, have no real vision of anything different, or don't want any new responsibilities. If they become unhappy for whatever reason, they leave.
I know that's not a very helpful observation, and it's not meant to be critical, but I think that's the simple truth of it. The end result is a group of people that, while probably pretty happy, haven't changed anything in a long time, and probably won't. If someone new comes along, and by some happy coincidence they feel at home, or make some friends, they might stay; but things are very unlikely to ever change much at all--without a leader. One day the end will finally come, when the site becomes non-functional for some technical reason or other, due to lack of interest.
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The Golden Days? Stagnation? Lack of interest?
These are my Golden Days, Mortalmist has become more influential to my dreams and my life than I thought a forum ever could, and sparked more interest in the most eclectic variety of dreaming subjects than I even knew there were. I find the people here supportive, ingenious, comfortable, and knowledgeable.
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The lack of obstacles is my point though. Even though there's an open invitation, so to speak, to influence the community people very rarely stand up. I think that the concept of MM being equal standing for ever is really unusual compared to real life and its sort of "lost" on a lot of people. The MM "leaders" are all very helpful and inviting, but the separation is not something they are willing for better or worse; its how the rest of the forum regards them, and a lot of times it isn't intentional, more of the natural flow of things.
That being said, being content with the way things are would mean less cause for change, yes. There is still the sudden drop in activity, however...
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My guess (I can't stand SC; every post I make, there's some stupid phrase like that, that I keep repeating over, and over.. Last post I said "thing" 97 times. :?)
You counted?
I must say I don't think that in MM new-comers are restricted from leadership. It's all very organic, and I've seen newcomers can reach it in a very short time, they just need to be interested in discussing things.
The Golden Days? Stagnation? Lack of interest?
To me the Golden Days have just arrived again. It was only a storm. ;)
The lack of obstacles is my point though. Even though there's an open invitation, so to speak, to influence the community people very rarely stand up.
This is not a problem exclusive to MM, but to most societies in general, and even though I have been meditating on the roots of that problem, I have yet to reach a conclusion.
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I was discussing leadership, here in the leadership topic.
The scope of what you're talking about is very very limited. According to your post, this discussion and countless others are inherently pointless. I suppose we're wasting our time here then, with the guild hall and the strategy forum and anything that contributes to the community outside of literally discussing dreams. Projects are unnecessary as well, and why track the activity levels at all?
While dream journals and discussions are the bread and butter of MM, there is a whole lot of forum outside of those topics and a whole lot of people who find other things necessary. The more you cut these things away, the less influence people have on bettering the forum and perhaps more importantly, the less this feels like a community.
So are we to conclude that your contribution to this discussion is that this discussion is meaningless? Why are we in this thread? Why do we have this board?
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I suppose we're wasting our time here then.
What is a man? What is a waste? Why are you here in the first place? Let them out of their cage for long enough and they will build whats natural to them, then the grasp of power is pointless and cant integrate anymore. :content:
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think it's more a lack of direct or indirect reward (dream or fun-related reward.)
That is exactly what i was trying to do when i suggested the badge system, not really sure whatever happened to that xD
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I don't think what you said is meaningless, its how you feel about things. But my interpretation of what you said dismisses this thread's topic as meaningless, along with quite a few other things that I see as valuable to MM. While threads and boards and discussions like these aren't absolutely necessary for the forum to function, I believe they have a great impact on growth and development, which is at least part of the reason we're having this thread in the first place.
Its not a pseudo-problem we're addressing here and I'm not the first to bring it up. I was giving my theory as to why many forums experience leadership issues and comparing it to what I've experienced here. The responses so far don't seem to qualify the idea I posted, and I admitted some uncertainty of the connection in my post. But I saw enough similarities to at least assume it was worth presenting to you guys.
The idea that dreaming is an individual experience and so the benefits can't really be shared (of course depending on what you believe here but it's at least not proven) and so this leaves less incentive (at least directly related to dreaming ) to work on projects is very valid and relevant here. The benefits to helping the community have never been tangible and is more or less what you'd like to see or how you'd like to help. That's pretty key and a good point MB made.
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That's valid when your dreaming is your only concern. My perspective is different. Very little I've done here has influenced my dreaming. I like to think I have helped others with their dreaming, and helped improve the community, or contirbute to whatever indiscernible quality that makes MM MM. This has always justified my time here to myself.
But yes, you have to determine what it is you're getting for your efforts and if its "enough".
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How did this thread go from being about leadership to debating the relevance of subjects/threads/discussions on the forum that aren't directly involved with dreaming? We stayed related to the leadership thing for a little while, but it's prevalence dwindled after a few posts from MB and AspiR debating about meaning(I hate to name names, but let's face facts).
I'm certainly not going to try to end this argument/debate, but I will express my opinion.
Moonbeam:
The forum is many things to many people, and some find that they enjoy doing things on the forum not related to dreaming. Such as the games we play. I, for one, find them to be enjoyable, a distraction from frustration I feel about my inability to have LD's regularly.
As far as meaninglessness goes: Does anything we do truly have meaning? We're a dreaming forum. Meaninglessness is implied simply by saying "dream". Think about it for a second. What benefit do you actually gain from LD'ing? I don't see any.
I think I've gone off-topic. My point is that something doesn't have to benefit anyone, or have meaning to be worth doing. Board games, Card games, reading, watching T.V., making Music, anything recreational. None of it is meaningful, but doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
AspiR:
If MB sees non-dream related things on the forum as meaningless, you can't really argue with it. It is a dreaming forum, as I stated before. It's her opinion, mostly, so you can't say she's right or wrong. So she sees meaninglessness in certain things. Sorry to be blunt, but big deal. Ignore it, move on. It's what I did when I saw her rants on religion. It serves no one to argue opinions, which is all I'm seeing you two do. It ends badly, with both sides begrudged toward the other and nothing solved. In the end, no one wins an argument like that.
I know, compared to how I started this post, what I said toward MB and AspiR sounds contrary at best, at worst it's hypocritical. I'd like it if we could stop the nonsense and get back to the topic at hand.
And MB, if it sounds like I only have negative things to say to you, I apologize.
I know no one asked for my opinion but there it is.
As far as Leadership goes: While I love MM and appreciate how it's helped me over several months, I have noticed a lack of direction(if that's the right way to put it). Do we need a leader? If it helps us get where we need to go, then yes. If we decided to try it out, do it on a trial basis. If it doesn't work out, that's cool, just scrap the idea, and try something different.
New member retention is indeed an issue, as the only people who post seem to be the regulars. Will leadership help us with that? I don't see how. I would've figured a collective group could come up with something to help with that. Perhaps have a group that deals with issues of New Members? Seems logical to me.
Unfinished projects might be helped by leadership. Leaders could give project leaders the push they needed to make sure they need to make sure the projects follow through. Perhaps friendly reminders? I don't know, I'm no expert.
I say try the Leader thing, give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. If it does, keep it. One thing that must be present is a way to get rid of a poor/ineffective leader though.
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Just from observation, but on other LD sites, member retention is also a problem. The larger ones don't notice it as much, since they're freaking huge and there's a constant supply of newbies, but 90% drop out in a month or two. Only the very dedicated stick around. I think lucid dreaming in general is just that sort of a topic that sparks huge initial interest that quickly fades out in most of the general population once actual work becomes involved. Is it any wonder that so many of our "senior denizens" are also skilled dreamers? They'd almost have to be. My own interest died out months ago. I'm here mostly because it's so nice to talk to all the wonderful friends I've made. :) I like to hear about their days and how they're doing and if all is going well (not just in relation to dreams, either). It's nice having a place to come together and just talk about anything and everything.
As for my own role in leadership, I spearheaded the Minecraft project. That was back when I hosted the entire kit and kaboodle on my own computer and I knew how to work it. There are some areas of technology where I'm still horribly inept: linux, server and networking stuff, and media compression/formats, primarily. It's an entirely different sort of system that baffles me. I've had some bits explained to me, but I still don't get it. Maybe perhaps one day I'll understand, but I can't work Ubuntu on my own machine, yet alone remotely. :(
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Just from observation, but on other LD sites, member retention is also a problem
Hence why badges would work so well, people come they learn and they leave because there is no direction and they get bored. Give them something fun they can do and remember for a long time that will keep them coming back. The only way badges can work is if the community creates fun dream challenges to motivate and intrigue a person. Its the same way achievements work on Xbox live or how leveling works on video games. Once they pick up 10 badges they feel attached and want more and that's what creates fun.
Writeing this with electrodes attached to my body, Woohoo! :content:
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I haven't felt like this place is "generic, with a little dreaming on the side", for a moment. We've got quite a few off-topic things, sure, but every forum does (yes, even the successful ones). It's pretty evident that dreaming is the star of this show, while off-topic is still busy begging the director to give him a walk-on part.
Do you feel that way sometimes, MB?
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I haven't felt like this place is "generic, with a little dreaming on the side", for a moment.
Being fair to MB, I have been on MM on and off all day diddleing about in my IndigoGhost way and have not noticed a single dreaming thread. It may just be that the non_relation threads outnumber the dreaming ones ^_^;. :angel:
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http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php?topic=4777.msg122085#msg122085
http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php?topic=4783.msg122152#msg122152
http://mortalmist.com/forum/index.php?topic=4776.msg122084#msg122084
Those are new dream related threads begun today.
Many posts have been made to existing dream related threads too - journals, ongoing discussions, the Dream Study Groups and more.
Just FWIW.
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Cambo, I find your first post in this thread confusing and a little bit funny. I think you are breaking up some drama that doesn't exist. I think the key confusion is the term "non-dream related things". When I was arguing with Mooni, I was talking about discussions like the one we're having right now as a non-dream related thing. The reason why your post is confusing is you were telling me to stop doing what I was doing, and then continued doing what I was doing yourself.
"Let's face facts", every single post of mine in this thread directly addressed the topic. None of it was "nonsense". As for arguing opinions, "sorry to be blunt", but welcome to discussion. Its kind of impossible not to argue opinions in a discussion; without arguing opinions, then a discussion is nothing more than a Q&A session. Things that aren't opinions aren't worth arguing anyway - if you can prove your point as a fact, not an opinion, then no discussion is necessary. Challenging opinions is an important part of discussion, and if you aren't prepared to stand by your opinion when someone does this, then in my opinion your opinion isn't worth stating.
I could go on but doing so would further derail the thread. I guess what I'm getting at is you have a misunderstanding with what was being discussed. In fact, when you disrupted the conversation by pointing out our disruption, I had just finished qualifying Mooni's last two points; in other words, our discussion converged and we even began to agree with each other.
Back on topic, Maria brings up a really good point - there could be a direct correlation between how many members we retain and how many members sign up. Furthermore the difference in our numbers for these two things and the numbers of other sites could explain why they seem to be so much more active than we are. If this is true (and I think it would be worth it to investigate this further) then can we really fix that and retain our cozy, tightly knit atmosphere? Do we want to field that many destined to be inactive players here at MM?
Indigo, I'll admit that I haven't read your idea about dream badges, but how are they any different from the monthly completed tasks? If the key difference is icons, that idea was brought up years ago, I believe it failed simply because we didn't have anyone who wanted to design the badges. Again, apologies if I'm off base here I am speaking with relative ignorance.
And finally, I don't think MM will ever be something other than a lucid dreaming site. Mooni's consistent efforts to keep us on track have earned her a favorable reputation and the appreciation of many members. But I don't see us diverging into a pointless atmosphere, the slope is not quite that slippery.
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Many posts have been made to existing dream related threads too - journals, ongoing discussions, the Dream Study Groups and more.
Yup. I read and post on DJs every day.
Indigo, I'll admit that I haven't read your idea about dream badges, but how are they any different from the monthly completed tasks? If the key difference is icons, that idea was brought up years ago, I believe it failed simply because we didn't have anyone who wanted to design the badges. Again, apologies if I'm off base here I am speaking with relative ignorance.
Yes, IG was not the first to bring that up. And I already posted two badges I made somewhere :rolleyes:
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Cambo, I find your first post in this thread confusing and a little bit funny. I think you are breaking up some drama that doesn't exist. I think the key confusion is the term "non-dream related things". When I was arguing with Mooni, I was talking about discussions like the one we're having right now as a non-dream related thing. The reason why your post is confusing is you were telling me to stop doing what I was doing, and then continued doing what I was doing yourself.
Yeah, I'm just not going to post in serious topics anymore. The point of posts like these always seem to go right over my head.
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Yeah, I'm just not going to post in serious topics anymore. The point of posts like these always seem to go right over my head.
Well, I really enjoyed your post.
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Don't decide to not post. The latter half of the post I was addressing was all relevant and contributing to the discussion. We like posts like that :bigsmile: