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SRC - Scan Reality Check

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Kar:
Hukif, Naiya, Oreo, and I got into a group call together and decided to try to figure out how to explain scan once and for all (Sensei couldn't make the call, but he also chipped in later). We may have also found a technique out along the way since this is how some of us are able to be lucid so much of the time. If it does become a technique, we decided to call it SILD = Scan Induced Lucid Dreaming (though have some concerns about it being mistaken for SSILD, so the name might change). It might be more accurate to call it a RC, though, so Scan RC might work better. [Edit: I changed it to SRC since I think that fits better]


Definition of scan:
Scan is an extra sense, like sight or hearing or etc., that you only have in dreams or visualizations but not in waking. It’s kind of like the ability to probe your dream for information that you want, even information that you shouldn’t be able to know if you only have use of your normal waking senses. It can sometimes present like the info dumps your dream gives you about details related to the dream, but you get them intentionally.

You can also use scan passively to notice changes to your environment in the dream or other peculiarities by keeping your sense spread out, like you would when keeping your ears perked up for sound or your eyes alert for movement. Using scan like this, you can feel when something is changing, the scene is shifting, things are despawned, etc.


How scan feels:
When you use scan you no longer just reside in your dream body but instead feel connected to everything in the dream. It’s all around you, like water would be if you were underwater in a swimming pool. When you're awake, the “water” of scan is gone. This makes it very easy to tell the difference between being awake and being asleep.


Training to use scan:
Someone might practice scan by sensing dream characters or objects that are out of sight without touching them physically--reaching out with their mind instead.

You could also try to practice waking visualization habits that could lead to the use of scan if tried in dreams. One such visualization would be to mentally track a person that you are about to lose sight of after they’re beyond the perception of your eyes or ears. Preferably someone you might run into again in waking life, like a fellow shopper in a store or someone out walking their dog. Imagine where they go and what they do. If you run into them again and find that your visualization was wrong, you’re awake. If you’re right, try wondering about who they are or some other question about them. If you get an info dump of information you can verify as accurate, you’re dreaming.


Edit:
This is going to be a WIP for a while as I analyze it more and compare it with the experiences of others.

I'm just going to dump some notes here for me to read through later.

At it's most base level, I think scan might be the ability to intuitively communicate with one's subconscious and intentionally prompt it to provide information or flesh something out in the dream. One must be aware enough to probe for the information in order to use scan since it's an active skill. I think it can be used without lucidity since using it makes me lucid, implying that I used it before I was lucid.

An info dump would be to passively receive information from one's subconscious without any intentional prompting. One doesn't need to be lucid or aware that they received an info dump in order to get one--it can be as simple as knowing your backstory in a dream when it starts. This is a passive skill.

Making a conscious decision to change something and seeing that decision realized would be dream control. This is an active skill that can be used with or without lucidity.

These are three different kinds of knowing.

Knowing what you want to know.
Knowing what your SC wants you to know.
Knowing that a change you want to happen will happen.

I'm unsure if scan is more like dream control or an extra sense that we only have in dreams or visualizations or if it's kind of both. It definitely has its own feeling that isn't the same as the feeling of using dream control, but that could just be how it is for me and not how it is generally.

I wonder if using scan is like being in a constant nonverbal dialogue with my SC where I ask and it answers.

Both dream control and scan are used intentionally, but info dumps are a non-intentional version of scan. I'm unsure if scan would count as an extra sense in dreams generally speaking since we can passively and actively use it like we can other senses to gather information and scan is only really used to perceive things. The moment things are altered due to a dreamer's decision, that's dream control. Scan doesn't alter anything from how it already is. It just gathers information in an intentional way.

Put another way, dream control is like a statement to your SC and scan is like a question to your SC. Similar, but I dunno if they're the same.

The way I use scan, in that analogy, would be like perpetually asking questions all the time, keeping a wave of questions around me and using that to navigate the dream. Sometimes I make statements after receiving information related to a question I asked. This doesn't meant that the question and statement are the same--the question just facilitated the statement.

Also, the questions and statements I use aren't usually made with words, but quick thoughts and intentions. Doing either or both is often as natural as breathing, especially since I've been more into making us of dream glitches and weak points rather than hard control these days.


New notes from a 04-17-2020 conversation with Oreo and Hukif:

Info dumps are like getting info without asking for it
Scan is like getting info you ask for
Dream control is like saying, "This is the info"

Scan is passive
Scan is a dream sense based off awareness
Scan is a method of perception, like sight or touch or any other sense, rather than dream control
Scan, like any other sense, can be abused to become dream control
Scan is the sense that allows you to know more about the dream itself

Sight, a vision based sense, allows you to see things
Scan, an awareness based dream sense, allows you to know dream things


Similar things you can compare it to:
Feeling the Matrix
Feeling the force
Nen from Hunter x Hunter
Sensing chi/qi/ki around you
Extending your aura to sense the world around you
Knowing the code of the dream and when it’s changed

Caradon:
Hi Kar! Welcome back. I don't think we ever chatted but I remember seeing you around.

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and share. I don't remember if I've heard the term Scan before. But I think I kind of understand what you're talking about. Let me know if I'm wrong in what I'm thinking.

It sounds like what you are describing is kind of how I feel when I start getting on a good roll with lucidity. When I start getting more and more used to the feeling of the dream so it becomes easier and easier to recognize. Sometimes almost annoyingly so, because I've gotten myself to the point where I start becoming lucid in such a natural and smooth way that I hardly even think about it and I lose that OMG this is a dream moment where lucidity suddenly comes over you in a moment of realization. And you just start to sometimes know, without really thinking about the fact that you know. If that makes any sense...

 I kind of don't like that when that happens, because I wake up wondering if I was even really lucid. Because even though it felt like a lucid dream and I was treating it like a dream, I never once thought about the fact it was a dream. Maybe similar to the same way when you're awake and you go through your day and you're not really thinking about the fact that you're awake. (Unless of course, you're working on lucidity inducing awareness work...)  You just are awake and doing what you do in life. I enjoy that sudden moment of realization and wonder of it all in dreams when becoming lucid in the middle of it. So to me it can be kind of annoying when it becomes that smooth.   

I think that's a good idea to remember to take the time and pay attention to how the dream feels, reach out with your miind so to speak and feel your surroundings. I know I've done that before, also sometimes in great wonder that it feels like reality. But of course, when you are actually awake it is a different feeling even as real as it might have felt in the dream when you were there. It's still obviously a different feeling when you wake up and then you know you are awake. I'm going to try and remember to practice doing that, thanks for reminding me of it. I remember once in a falling elevator dream when I became lucid, telling a dream character that was there with me it was a dream and explaining that they should reach out with their mind like that and feel the dream and they would know it was a dream.

I like what you say about trying to sense dream characters before you see them. I've never thought about doing that while in the middle of a full blown lucid. What you are saying reminds me of how when I'm WILDing I do that. I can sense things sometimes before I can see them or hear them. I've never been sure how to describe that, especially the way I can sometimes feel sounds before I actually start to hear them. I've always thought of it as being sound impressions. Like feeling the sounds trying to bubble up from within before I'm quite deep enough into it to actually hear them. Does that make any sense?  And sometimes with the dream characters too, while WILDing. Sometimes they start to appear from the edges of awareness.

Am I kind of on the right track of what you are trying to explain?

For me, in order to get there it's just a matter of practicing and getting my frequency of lucidity up enough and then start getting on a roll with it. Kind of a gradual domino effect so to speak.

I think it was Hukif, If I remember right, talking about how he would be able to recognize how he  was dreaming so easily because of the way it feels while walking. Walking feels differently and he always recognizes it. I always thought that was a really interesting way to be able to recognize the dream.   

Contratonics:
This reminds me a little bit of how I work with dream memories when journaling. I try to be very careful about getting memories mixed up with waking life thoughts. It's easy to try and reason out why something might be the way it is after the fact, and come to conclusions that weren't actually presented in the dream, and those conclusions can change how I remember the dream itself after the fact. Injecting waking life logic can potentially take away from the free-associations and symbols of the dream itself.

When I'm struggling to remember something or trying to distinguish dream memories from waking life interpretations / associations I've noticed one thing that helps is a kind of "feeling" that I associate with dream memories and not waking ideation. I hadn't thought to try and apply that as a reality check, but it's straightforward enough to be worth a shot. Thanks for offering this up, once I'm satisfied with my recall again I'll see if I can work with this.

Kar:

--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---Hi Kar! Welcome back. I don't think we ever chatted but I remember seeing you around.
--- End quote ---

Thanks! I'm honestly pretty surprised that there are still people active on the site. A lot of us moved to a Discord server years ago. Here's a link to it: https://discord.gg/d2FDYum

I wanted to post this here first for sentimental reasons and didn't really expect anyone to see it, let alone respond to it.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---I don't remember if I've heard the term Scan before.
--- End quote ---

I've talked about it bunch of times in the past, but called it "the dreaming sense." Hukif named it scan, which we felt was more descriptive and the rest of us started calling it that instead.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---It sounds like what you are describing is kind of how I feel when I start getting on a good roll with lucidity. When I start getting more and more used to the feeling of the dream so it becomes easier and easier to recognize. Sometimes almost annoyingly so, because I've gotten myself to the point where I start becoming lucid in such a natural and smooth way that I hardly even think about it and I lose that OMG this is a dream moment where lucidity suddenly comes over you in a moment of realization. And you just start to sometimes know, without really thinking about the fact that you know. If that makes any sense...
--- End quote ---

That sounds like part of it, an I did used to have some impostor syndrome because of it when I first joined the LDing community and wondered, "Am I really lucid, or am I just thinking I was after I wake up?"
I started intentionally analyzing my dreams and making comparisons to IWL while in dreams after that to reassure myself that yeah, I'm pretty much always lucid in dreams. I can just tell right away that I'm dreaming since I have scan as an extra sense in dreams and don't have it IWL.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---I enjoy that sudden moment of realization and wonder of it all in dreams when becoming lucid in the middle of it. So to me it can be kind of annoying when it becomes that smooth.
--- End quote ---

I can understand that. I'm actually not a fan of having even a moment of non-lucidity since it feels bad, like I was scammed. I usually become lucid pretty much right away when I start dreaming and rarely have moments of non-lucidity.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---I think that's a good idea to remember to take the time and pay attention to how the dream feels, reach out with your miind so to speak and feel your surroundings.
--- End quote ---

That was Oreo's idea! I can't remember what it's like to not feel scan all the time in dreams, but he only uses it part of the time, so he was able to come up with exercises to notice it and train it.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM --- I know I've done that before, also sometimes in great wonder that it feels like reality. But of course, when you are actually awake it is a different feeling even as real as it might have felt in the dream when you were there. It's still obviously a different feeling when you wake up and then you know you are awake.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, IWL feels completely different since there's no scan.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM --- I'm going to try and remember to practice doing that, thanks for reminding me of it.
--- End quote ---

No problem! Hukif, Oreo, Naiya, Sensei, and I are going to keep brainstorming together and work on possibly fleshing it out more over time.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM --- I remember once in a falling elevator dream when I became lucid, telling a dream character that was there with me it was a dream and explaining that they should reach out with their mind like that and feel the dream and they would know it was a dream.
--- End quote ---

I've met DCs who could use scan. Let me know if you ever do teach one XD



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---I like what you say about trying to sense dream characters before you see them.
--- End quote ---

Before you see them or after you see them and they've gone out of sight. It's one most of us agreed we do and Oreo said it might be beginner friendly.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM --- I've never thought about doing that while in the middle of a full blown lucid. What you are saying reminds me of how when I'm WILDing I do that. I can sense things sometimes before I can see them or hear them. I've never been sure how to describe that, especially the way I can sometimes feel sounds before I actually start to hear them. I've always thought of it as being sound impressions. Like feeling the sounds trying to bubble up from within before I'm quite deep enough into it to actually hear them. Does that make any sense?  And sometimes with the dream characters too, while WILDing. Sometimes they start to appear from the edges of awareness.
--- End quote ---

Like you get the data that sound is coming before the sound comes? Sounds like scan, yeah. XD



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---Am I kind of on the right track of what you are trying to explain?
--- End quote ---

It certainly sound similar. I think a lot of people use scan with or without realizing it.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---For me, in order to get there it's just a matter of practicing and getting my frequency of lucidity up enough and then start getting on a roll with it. Kind of a gradual domino effect so to speak.
--- End quote ---

Everyone was saying that this might be a more advanced LDing thing since you need to be lucid often to use it regularly. I dunno if I agree or not since I know I learned scan around age 5 when I first started trying to control my dreams and then used it to be able to better differentiate dreams from waking.



--- Quote from: Caradon on January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM ---I think it was Hukif, If I remember right, talking about how he would be able to recognize how he  was dreaming so easily because of the way it feels while walking. Walking feels differently and he always recognizes it. I always thought that was a really interesting way to be able to recognize the dream.

--- End quote ---

Yep! He and I have been talking about scan for years. We seem to use it in similar ways.



--- Quote from: Contratonics on January 03, 2020, 12:31:23 PM ---This reminds me a little bit of how I work with dream memories when journaling. I try to be very careful about getting memories mixed up with waking life thoughts. It's easy to try and reason out why something might be the way it is after the fact, and come to conclusions that weren't actually presented in the dream, and those conclusions can change how I remember the dream itself after the fact. Injecting waking life logic can potentially take away from the free-associations and symbols of the dream itself.
--- End quote ---

I can see why that might be difficult. I like to review all my prior dreams after each one is over so I can remember them better and remember what I was thinking. Then I journal asap when I wake up so I can keep things as accurate as possible. Sometimes I worry about waking thought about contamination, but I can only do my best.



--- Quote from: Contratonics on January 03, 2020, 12:31:23 PM ---When I'm struggling to remember something or trying to distinguish dream memories from waking life interpretations / associations I've noticed one thing that helps is a kind of "feeling" that I associate with dream memories and not waking ideation. I hadn't thought to try and apply that as a reality check, but it's straightforward enough to be worth a shot. Thanks for offering this up, once I'm satisfied with my recall again I'll see if I can work with this.
--- End quote ---

No problem! I'd be curious to hear how it works for you!

Caradon:
Thanks Kar.

Yeah a couple of us here are using the site to journal and get our dreaming selves back on track after life causing some detours from the practice...

I have a hard time imagining what lucid dreaming is like for someone like you, who is basically born with always being lucid. It must be a completely different experience.

I've actually given some thought to that over the last year, the difference in having to work for it, or not. Of course a part of me is envious of someone than can be lucid all the time in every dream, with little to no effort at all. Just born that way.

But on the flip side I'm not sure I would really want that. Because on the other side of it, all the work I put into becoming lucid, and maintaining frequent lucidity. (When I get to that point.) Brings something into my daily waking life that I'm not sure I would be getting if I didn't have to work for it through my daily awareness meditations and all that jazz. Also possibly appreciating my lucidity more because of having put so much work into getting myself there. It becomes a lifestyle and the work itself brings a sense of peace and tranquility and joy that is a greater experience than just the experience of the dreams themselves. And that feeling is actually what I've been after, and using my dreaming practices to drag myself back from the depths of a very bad place mentally.

But having said that, I don't really know for sure because the concept of being in the shoes of someone like you is very alien to me. Just being lucid all the time in every dream since a very young child, not even trying to. I can't very well comprehend what that kind of experience is like.

And if someone had a magic wand and could wave it and say if you like I can make you always be lucid for the rest of your life in every dream from now on, no effort required. I'm not sure if I could say no to that either. I'd at least be very tempted to say yes give it to me!  :) Lol.   

 

 

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