Author Topic: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams  (Read 169 times)

Offline Kar

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SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« on: January 03, 2020, 12:24:07 AM »
Hukif, Naiya, Oreo, and I got into a group call together and decided to try to figure out how to explain scan once and for all (Sensei couldn't make the call, but he also chipped in later). We may have also found a technique out along the way since this is how some of us are able to be lucid so much of the time. If it does become a technique, we decided to call it SILD = Scan Induced Lucid Dreaming (though have some concerns about it being mistaken for SSILD, so the name might change).


Definition of scan:
Scan is an extra sense, like sight or hearing or etc., that you only have in dreams or visualizations but not in waking. It’s kind of like the ability to probe your dream for information that you want, even information that you shouldn’t be able to know if you only have use of your normal waking senses. It can sometimes present like the info dumps your dream gives you about details related to the dream, but you get them intentionally.

You can also use scan passively to notice changes to your environment in the dream or other peculiarities by keeping your sense spread out, like you would when keeping your ears perked up for sound or your eyes alert for movement. Using scan like this, you can feel when something is changing, the scene is shifting, things are despawned, etc.


How scan feels:
When you use scan you no longer just reside in your dream body but instead feel connected to everything in the dream. It’s all around you, like water would be if you were underwater in a swimming pool. When you're awake, the “water” of scan is gone. This makes it very easy to tell the difference between being awake and being asleep.


Training to use scan:
Someone might practice scan by sensing dream characters or objects that are out of sight without touching them physically--reaching out with their mind instead.

You could also try to practice waking visualization habits that could lead to the use of scan if tried in dreams. One such visualization would be to mentally track a person that you are about to lose sight of after they’re beyond the perception of your eyes or ears. Preferably someone you might run into again in waking life, like a fellow shopper in a store or someone out walking their dog. Imagine where they go and what they do. If you run into them again and find that your visualization was wrong, you’re awake. If you’re right, try wondering about who they are or some other question about them. If you get an info dump of information you can verify as accurate, you’re dreaming.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:21:10 PM by Kar »

Online Caradon

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2020, 05:40:54 AM »
Hi Kar! Welcome back. I don't think we ever chatted but I remember seeing you around.

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and share. I don't remember if I've heard the term Scan before. But I think I kind of understand what you're talking about. Let me know if I'm wrong in what I'm thinking.

It sounds like what you are describing is kind of how I feel when I start getting on a good roll with lucidity. When I start getting more and more used to the feeling of the dream so it becomes easier and easier to recognize. Sometimes almost annoyingly so, because I've gotten myself to the point where I start becoming lucid in such a natural and smooth way that I hardly even think about it and I lose that OMG this is a dream moment where lucidity suddenly comes over you in a moment of realization. And you just start to sometimes know, without really thinking about the fact that you know. If that makes any sense...

 I kind of don't like that when that happens, because I wake up wondering if I was even really lucid. Because even though it felt like a lucid dream and I was treating it like a dream, I never once thought about the fact it was a dream. Maybe similar to the same way when you're awake and you go through your day and you're not really thinking about the fact that you're awake. (Unless of course, you're working on lucidity inducing awareness work...)  You just are awake and doing what you do in life. I enjoy that sudden moment of realization and wonder of it all in dreams when becoming lucid in the middle of it. So to me it can be kind of annoying when it becomes that smooth.   

I think that's a good idea to remember to take the time and pay attention to how the dream feels, reach out with your miind so to speak and feel your surroundings. I know I've done that before, also sometimes in great wonder that it feels like reality. But of course, when you are actually awake it is a different feeling even as real as it might have felt in the dream when you were there. It's still obviously a different feeling when you wake up and then you know you are awake. I'm going to try and remember to practice doing that, thanks for reminding me of it. I remember once in a falling elevator dream when I became lucid, telling a dream character that was there with me it was a dream and explaining that they should reach out with their mind like that and feel the dream and they would know it was a dream.

I like what you say about trying to sense dream characters before you see them. I've never thought about doing that while in the middle of a full blown lucid. What you are saying reminds me of how when I'm WILDing I do that. I can sense things sometimes before I can see them or hear them. I've never been sure how to describe that, especially the way I can sometimes feel sounds before I actually start to hear them. I've always thought of it as being sound impressions. Like feeling the sounds trying to bubble up from within before I'm quite deep enough into it to actually hear them. Does that make any sense?  And sometimes with the dream characters too, while WILDing. Sometimes they start to appear from the edges of awareness.

Am I kind of on the right track of what you are trying to explain?

For me, in order to get there it's just a matter of practicing and getting my frequency of lucidity up enough and then start getting on a roll with it. Kind of a gradual domino effect so to speak.

I think it was Hukif, If I remember right, talking about how he would be able to recognize how he  was dreaming so easily because of the way it feels while walking. Walking feels differently and he always recognizes it. I always thought that was a really interesting way to be able to recognize the dream.   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 07:17:48 AM by Caradon »

Offline Contratonics

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2020, 12:31:23 PM »
This reminds me a little bit of how I work with dream memories when journaling. I try to be very careful about getting memories mixed up with waking life thoughts. It's easy to try and reason out why something might be the way it is after the fact, and come to conclusions that weren't actually presented in the dream, and those conclusions can change how I remember the dream itself after the fact. Injecting waking life logic can potentially take away from the free-associations and symbols of the dream itself.

When I'm struggling to remember something or trying to distinguish dream memories from waking life interpretations / associations I've noticed one thing that helps is a kind of "feeling" that I associate with dream memories and not waking ideation. I hadn't thought to try and apply that as a reality check, but it's straightforward enough to be worth a shot. Thanks for offering this up, once I'm satisfied with my recall again I'll see if I can work with this.

Current Goals
-Recall exercises
-Dreamsign updates
-Testing new RCs
-Rally

Offline Kar

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2020, 05:42:34 PM »
Hi Kar! Welcome back. I don't think we ever chatted but I remember seeing you around.

Thanks! I'm honestly pretty surprised that there are still people active on the site. A lot of us moved to a Discord server years ago. Here's a link to it: https://discord.gg/d2FDYum

I wanted to post this here first for sentimental reasons and didn't really expect anyone to see it, let alone respond to it.


I don't remember if I've heard the term Scan before.

I've talked about it bunch of times in the past, but called it "the dreaming sense." Hukif named it scan, which we felt was more descriptive and the rest of us started calling it that instead.


It sounds like what you are describing is kind of how I feel when I start getting on a good roll with lucidity. When I start getting more and more used to the feeling of the dream so it becomes easier and easier to recognize. Sometimes almost annoyingly so, because I've gotten myself to the point where I start becoming lucid in such a natural and smooth way that I hardly even think about it and I lose that OMG this is a dream moment where lucidity suddenly comes over you in a moment of realization. And you just start to sometimes know, without really thinking about the fact that you know. If that makes any sense...

That sounds like part of it, an I did used to have some impostor syndrome because of it when I first joined the LDing community and wondered, "Am I really lucid, or am I just thinking I was after I wake up?"
I started intentionally analyzing my dreams and making comparisons to IWL while in dreams after that to reassure myself that yeah, I'm pretty much always lucid in dreams. I can just tell right away that I'm dreaming since I have scan as an extra sense in dreams and don't have it IWL.


I enjoy that sudden moment of realization and wonder of it all in dreams when becoming lucid in the middle of it. So to me it can be kind of annoying when it becomes that smooth.

I can understand that. I'm actually not a fan of having even a moment of non-lucidity since it feels bad, like I was scammed. I usually become lucid pretty much right away when I start dreaming and rarely have moments of non-lucidity.


I think that's a good idea to remember to take the time and pay attention to how the dream feels, reach out with your miind so to speak and feel your surroundings.

That was Oreo's idea! I can't remember what it's like to not feel scan all the time in dreams, but he only uses it part of the time, so he was able to come up with exercises to notice it and train it.


I know I've done that before, also sometimes in great wonder that it feels like reality. But of course, when you are actually awake it is a different feeling even as real as it might have felt in the dream when you were there. It's still obviously a different feeling when you wake up and then you know you are awake.

Yeah, IWL feels completely different since there's no scan.


I'm going to try and remember to practice doing that, thanks for reminding me of it.

No problem! Hukif, Oreo, Naiya, Sensei, and I are going to keep brainstorming together and work on possibly fleshing it out more over time.


I remember once in a falling elevator dream when I became lucid, telling a dream character that was there with me it was a dream and explaining that they should reach out with their mind like that and feel the dream and they would know it was a dream.

I've met DCs who could use scan. Let me know if you ever do teach one XD


I like what you say about trying to sense dream characters before you see them.

Before you see them or after you see them and they've gone out of sight. It's one most of us agreed we do and Oreo said it might be beginner friendly.


I've never thought about doing that while in the middle of a full blown lucid. What you are saying reminds me of how when I'm WILDing I do that. I can sense things sometimes before I can see them or hear them. I've never been sure how to describe that, especially the way I can sometimes feel sounds before I actually start to hear them. I've always thought of it as being sound impressions. Like feeling the sounds trying to bubble up from within before I'm quite deep enough into it to actually hear them. Does that make any sense?  And sometimes with the dream characters too, while WILDing. Sometimes they start to appear from the edges of awareness.

Like you get the data that sound is coming before the sound comes? Sounds like scan, yeah. XD


Am I kind of on the right track of what you are trying to explain?

It certainly sound similar. I think a lot of people use scan with or without realizing it.


For me, in order to get there it's just a matter of practicing and getting my frequency of lucidity up enough and then start getting on a roll with it. Kind of a gradual domino effect so to speak.

Everyone was saying that this might be a more advanced LDing thing since you need to be lucid often to use it regularly. I dunno if I agree or not since I know I learned scan around age 5 when I first started trying to control my dreams and then used it to be able to better differentiate dreams from waking.


I think it was Hukif, If I remember right, talking about how he would be able to recognize how he  was dreaming so easily because of the way it feels while walking. Walking feels differently and he always recognizes it. I always thought that was a really interesting way to be able to recognize the dream.

Yep! He and I have been talking about scan for years. We seem to use it in similar ways.


This reminds me a little bit of how I work with dream memories when journaling. I try to be very careful about getting memories mixed up with waking life thoughts. It's easy to try and reason out why something might be the way it is after the fact, and come to conclusions that weren't actually presented in the dream, and those conclusions can change how I remember the dream itself after the fact. Injecting waking life logic can potentially take away from the free-associations and symbols of the dream itself.

I can see why that might be difficult. I like to review all my prior dreams after each one is over so I can remember them better and remember what I was thinking. Then I journal asap when I wake up so I can keep things as accurate as possible. Sometimes I worry about waking thought about contamination, but I can only do my best.


When I'm struggling to remember something or trying to distinguish dream memories from waking life interpretations / associations I've noticed one thing that helps is a kind of "feeling" that I associate with dream memories and not waking ideation. I hadn't thought to try and apply that as a reality check, but it's straightforward enough to be worth a shot. Thanks for offering this up, once I'm satisfied with my recall again I'll see if I can work with this.

No problem! I'd be curious to hear how it works for you!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 12:18:12 AM by Kar »

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2020, 06:03:39 AM »
Thanks Kar.

Yeah a couple of us here are using the site to journal and get our dreaming selves back on track after life causing some detours from the practice...

I have a hard time imagining what lucid dreaming is like for someone like you, who is basically born with always being lucid. It must be a completely different experience.

I've actually given some thought to that over the last year, the difference in having to work for it, or not. Of course a part of me is envious of someone than can be lucid all the time in every dream, with little to no effort at all. Just born that way.

But on the flip side I'm not sure I would really want that. Because on the other side of it, all the work I put into becoming lucid, and maintaining frequent lucidity. (When I get to that point.) Brings something into my daily waking life that I'm not sure I would be getting if I didn't have to work for it through my daily awareness meditations and all that jazz. Also possibly appreciating my lucidity more because of having put so much work into getting myself there. It becomes a lifestyle and the work itself brings a sense of peace and tranquility and joy that is a greater experience than just the experience of the dreams themselves. And that feeling is actually what I've been after, and using my dreaming practices to drag myself back from the depths of a very bad place mentally.

But having said that, I don't really know for sure because the concept of being in the shoes of someone like you is very alien to me. Just being lucid all the time in every dream since a very young child, not even trying to. I can't very well comprehend what that kind of experience is like.

And if someone had a magic wand and could wave it and say if you like I can make you always be lucid for the rest of your life in every dream from now on, no effort required. I'm not sure if I could say no to that either. I'd at least be very tempted to say yes give it to me!  :) Lol.   

 

 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 06:16:34 AM by Caradon »

Offline Kar

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 01:05:22 AM »

Yeah a couple of us here are using the site to journal and get our dreaming selves back on track after life causing some detours from the practice...

Nice! We keep our journals in the Discord now.



I have a hard time imagining what lucid dreaming is like for someone like you, who is basically born with always being lucid. It must be a completely different experience.

I wasn't born always being lucid. I used to have frequent nightmares as a child and learned to be lucid on my own as a necessity to protect myself without anyone to guide me. The only thing I had to work with was something my mom said in frustration when I went to her room crying after another nightmare when I was about five, "Just change your dreams."

I assumed that dream control was something everyone learned to do, like reading, and that I was just a slow learner. I didn't know what lucidity was or that people cared about it so much. Lucidity was just a stepping stone toward better defensive dream control for me. I was actually surprised when I learned in college that people valued lucidity over dream control. It was like hearing that people cared more about owning a spoon than being able to use it to eat.

After that interaction with my mom, I started memorizing all the sensations I experienced IWL, practiced visualizing until it got to the point where it was almost as clear as dreaming, and practiced dream control in visualizations whenever I had a free moment. I remember having a breakthrough when I was on a bus on my way to a summer camp when I was around six and was able to visualize something as vividly as dreaming. I worked hard to get where I am now with dream control and lucidity.

My progress slowed down a little in elementary school due to a number of factors that induced bad insomnia. I noticed that I didn't have any non-lucids anymore when I was in middle school, though it may have happened before then. IDK. By then I was using scan to get lucid almost every time I dreamed. I did have natural lucids before I had frequent nightmares, but they were mostly random. It wasn't something I cared about learning until I had to do so to protect myself.

So, again, I may have been able to have natural lucid dreams as a child, but I wasn't to the point of always being lucid without years of hard work, patience, practice, and experimentation to get there. I've never stopped practicing the habits I developed as a child.



Also possibly appreciating my lucidity more because of having put so much work into getting myself there.

It would be hard to say if one or the other of us has put more work in or appreciates it more, and I'm not sure it would matter either way. Why can't we both enjoy it? I'd say I appreciate my lucidity mostly because non-lucids feel icky, like I've been tricked; and I don't like that feeling. Aside from that, I mostly like them because they make dream control easier and it's fun to make meta jokes when I dream.



It becomes a lifestyle and the work itself brings a sense of peace and tranquility and joy that is a greater experience than just the experience of the dreams themselves. And that feeling is actually what I've been after, and using my dreaming practices to drag myself back from the depths of a very bad place mentally.

I can understand that. Playing with visualizations and memorizing IWL sensory information got me through bad times too. It's hepful to have a portable distraction that also helps you improve a skill you enjoy.



And if someone had a magic wand and could wave it and say if you like I can make you always be lucid for the rest of your life in every dream from now on, no effort required. I'm not sure if I could say no to that either. I'd at least be very tempted to say yes give it to me!  :) Lol.

I would have wanted that as a kid. Unfortunately, I've never met a lucid dreamer, even a natural, who hasn't put some kind of effort in to be lucid at a high frequency.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 03:46:45 AM by Kar »

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2020, 04:26:57 PM »
Sorry for the late response. Circumstances have put me off a bit.

I guess I just always thought the natural label meant someone that gets lucid without ever trying to. Moonbeam once told me she thought I should be in the natural group because I was getting lucid so often, naturally. But even though maybe reading my journals it might have seemed like it was coming easily, well once I get momentum going it gets easier and easier. But I was putting a ridiculous amount of effort and concentration into getting there. So I didn't feel like I belonged.
And of course not getting lucid in every dream every night. My longest streak so far has been getting lucid four nights in a row. I did once have an experience where I was lucid in every dream I recalled all night. IN that night of dreaming I had believed I had figured out the secret to getting lucid in every dream, it was true for the entire night, but unfortunately didn't continue into the next night.   

It's cool how you learned to become lucid so young from nightmares. I had a similar experiences with intense nightmares and becoming lucid during them. I learned to overcome them by not being afraid of them and eventually became a dream masochist basically. Fully aware I can't be harmed so nothing to be afraid of. Best way to overcome something scary in a dream is not being afraid no matter what is happening. It can't be scary if you're not afraid, right? Don't even need to combat it unless you want to just for fun. I have fun just letting stuff happen and saying "See, no harm done, ha!." Try again.

I love all my dreams though, lucid or not.

Offline Kar

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Re: SILD - Scan Induced Lucid Dreams
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2020, 03:58:23 AM »
Sorry for the late response. Circumstances have put me off a bit.

It's fine! Real life is a thing.


I guess I just always thought the natural label meant someone that gets lucid without ever trying to.
I did have some older lucids from before I started wanting to control my dreams all the time to deal with nightmares, but they were infrequent. Nightly lucids didn't happen until after the nightmares, the interaction with my mom, and a lot of practice and trial and error. If we want to get specific, the first lucid I ever remember having was when I had just graduated from my crib to a small bed and became lucid in a nightmare where monsters and witches were surrounding my bed. I sank into my mattress to hide, but they could still see me. I don't remember if it was the first time or if I got this nightmare a couple more times before I mustered enough willpower to be able to decide that they couldn't see me.


Moonbeam once told me she thought I should be in the natural group because I was getting lucid so often, naturally.

I've heard a lot of different definitions of what a natural is. The version I hear most often is that naturals are people who get their first lucids before they know about LDing and without trying to be lucid. Some people also add that it needs to happen in childhood. Some say they can know about LDing, but just don't try to get them. Some say they can try to LD, but just not know what it is or have guidance. It really depends on who you ask.


But even though maybe reading my journals it might have seemed like it was coming easily, well once I get momentum going it gets easier and easier. But I was putting a ridiculous amount of effort and concentration into getting there. So I didn't feel like I belonged.

I think you can put effort in and still be a natural based on most of the definitions I've heard of it. As long as you fit one of them, I think it's fine to say you're a natural. It's not exactly a very firmly defined term anyway.


And of course not getting lucid in every dream every night. My longest streak so far has been getting lucid four nights in a row. I did once have an experience where I was lucid in every dream I recalled all night. IN that night of dreaming I had believed I had figured out the secret to getting lucid in every dream, it was true for the entire night, but unfortunately didn't continue into the next night.

Oof. It sucks that you weren't able to remember the trick to it when you woke up. D:
It's cool that you were able to keep up the streak for a while night, though!


It's cool how you learned to become lucid so young from nightmares. I had a similar experiences with intense nightmares and becoming lucid during them. I learned to overcome them by not being afraid of them and eventually became a dream masochist basically. Fully aware I can't be harmed so nothing to be afraid of. Best way to overcome something scary in a dream is not being afraid no matter what is happening. It can't be scary if you're not afraid, right? Don't even need to combat it unless you want to just for fun. I have fun just letting stuff happen and saying "See, no harm done, ha!." Try again.

It seems like a lot of naturals had their first lucids due to nightmares and the ones with higher frequency of lucids seem to have been egged on by nightmares to get there. I think all of the people I know who have a very high frequency of LDs had issues with frequent nightmares when they were younger.


I love all my dreams though, lucid or not.

I think it's probably good to be able to like all your dreams. It's probably not normal for non-lucids to feel icky to me. They just do. DX