Was Freud Wrong About Everything? What About Dreams?

[StarSeeker]

1. About experience, there is a quote I just love: A experiência é a madre de todas as cousas, por ela soubemos radicalmente a verdade. I'm not going to translate it, I'll just say that this is from the time of the Discoveries, when Earth was discovered round.

Lol, OK, let me see if I can read Portugese, without cheating.  Something to the effect of what seems strange today may be true tomorrow?

Experience is the mother of all things, through her we radically came to know the truth.

However, the "theories" that people make up to explain what is going on often dilute and distort the knowledge, and can distract from the original truth when people focus on the theory instead. 

Totally agree here. The theoretical framework is much more "imperfect" than the facts, but sometimes that framework is necessary to reach other conclusions and more investigation.

For example, I have gotten interested in dog training recently, and of course there are some methods that work better than others, and actually there has been progress made in just the last ten years or so, and even old dog-trainers have switched to these methods, even saying they were skeptical until they tried them.

OK, so that's great, so I read aobut what is the most current and widely accepted as best method for dog training.  However, when you try to talk about it with people, their explanations are always completely intertwined with their theory for how it works, to the point that usually when they think they are being helpful, actually all they are doing is explaining their version of the theory, and not including the practical, empirical part.  AND--they don't even know they are doing it.  They may be great dog trainers, and can use the methods that empirically work, but since they have made up these theories about why they work, they can't identify and explain the useful parts anymore.

The methods they arrived, the practical things that work were reached because of that theory. For example, people notice a simple fact of dog behaviour, build a theory of why that happens and etc., and then try other things and see what works and doesn't.
And then the new things they discover are, exactly as you say, stuck within that theory, because for the people that advocate it, the news things don't "make sense" without all that. It can happen, and it does most of the times, that those things happen for a completely different reason that what it is speculated.

And most people don't care about that, but for other people who want to discover new methods or perfect the existing ones, the theory and the sense it makes (and whether facts/results support it along the way) are important.

That's the problem--they may very well be wrong. 

They may very well be wrong, when people make errors along their way.

I don't think economics is the best example for this.  Economics is partially the prediction of human behavior, which of course influences what it predicts.  Why not think of almost everything else that people have tried to guess about and been wrong, which is virtually everything until they started using the scientific method?

Hehe, you just reminded me this:

shall all be undertaken with an eye only to the results
of these actions on the economy and not to any
established traditional doctrine about what is sound and what is unsound. This principle of
judging only by effects  has been applied in many other fields of human activity, where it is
known as the method of science opposed to scholasticism.

The benefit is that then you can really make accurate predictions, rather than doing stupid things like eating out of your dogs bowl with him so he accepts you as pack-leader.  For example.

Don't tell me one of your books suggested that?!

[Moonbeam]

Experience is the mother of all things, through her we radically came to know the truth.

Thanks.  

However, the "theories" that people make up to explain what is going on often dilute and distort the knowledge, and can distract from the original truth when people focus on the theory instead.

Totally agree here. The theoretical framework is much more "imperfect" than the facts, but sometimes that framework is necessary to reach other conclusions and more investigation.

Yes, if one admits that it is a only an idea until more work is done.  Of course that's how people figure out all kind of things.  

And then the new things they discover are, exactly as you say, stuck within that theory, because for the people that advocate it, the news things don't "make sense" without all that. It can happen, and it does most of the times, that those things happen for a completely different reason that what it is speculated.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

The methods they arrived, the practical things that work were reached because of that theory.

How do you know that?  I didn't even go into detail about it.  I'm saying that they have methods that work despite their theories.  They didn't use the theory to develop the methods, necessarily, although some of them may have been indirectly suggested by something they thought, and just happened to work, but not for the reason they thought it did.  

Hehe, you just reminded me this:

shall all be undertaken with an eye only to the results
of these actions on the economy and not to any
established traditional doctrine about what is sound and what is unsound. This principle of
judging only by effects  has been applied in many other fields of human activity, where it is
known as the method of science opposed to scholasticism.

That is rather simple-minded, since there are different effects on different people, and it would depend on whose POV you are considering.

Another problem with using economics as an example is that often the ones preaching the theory are doing so for some ulterior motive of their own.

The benefit is that then you can really make accurate predictions, rather than doing stupid things like eating out of your dogs bowl with him so he accepts you as pack-leader.  For example.

Don't tell me one of your books suggested that?!

They suggest all kinds of crazy things.

[AspirationRealized]

On the original topic (again), about what john was saying, I think Kar and mu are good candidates for that sort of dream. Kar seems to never have a body of her own from the beginning, although I suppose her "spirit" represents her self? I won't speak for her, this is just what I've picked up from casually browsing her journal and some discussions in chat. I know that mu has had some dreams where he loses himself, at least thats how I remember him explaining it. He's less himself and more everything else. I've never heard of so much perspective bending as him describing his dreams.

majic, how was it that you were able to get over your stressful dreams?

Indigo, I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, although there are a few key things that don't add up to me. I still think Freud's wish fulfillment theory is too simple to cover everything although I think it obviously applies at least some of the time. You mentioned people cutting themselves for attention, and them having dreams about terrible things. I'm not sure I understand. If they are acting suicidal for attention, wouldn't they have dreams about receiving that attention? I also believe there's an important distinction between truly depressed and suicidal individuals, those who are crying out for attention, and those who are part of the "emo" clique. I don't think these can be so readily tied together.

While I do agree our waking life can have an influence on our dreams, I know plenty of people who are fans of horror and depressing works (in the form of literature, specifically, which I find most engaging) and don't suffer depressing or horrific dreams from it. I think some people can appreciate the catharsis without succumbing to it and being depressed all the time.

[IndigoGhost]

Indigo, I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying, although there are a few key things that don't add up to me. I still think Freud's wish fulfillment theory is too simple to cover everything although I think it obviously applies at least some of the time. You mentioned people cutting themselves for attention, and them having dreams about terrible things. I'm not sure I understand. If they are acting suicidal for attention, wouldn't they have dreams about receiving that attention? I also believe there's an important distinction between truly depressed and suicidal individuals, those who are crying out for attention, and those who are part of the "emo" clique. I don't think these can be so readily tied together.

While I do agree our waking life can have an influence on our dreams, I know plenty of people who are fans of horror and depressing works (in the form of literature, specifically, which I find most engaging) and don't suffer depressing or horrific dreams from it. I think some people can appreciate the catharsis without succumbing to it and being depressed all the time.

I feel that everyone has different reasons for everything, one person may be sad and cut because they believe they are ugly, and another person because their family member just died. The one who thinks they are ugly will most likely have dreams reflecting that feeling, for example teeth falling out or being naked in class. The one who's family member died could go either way, if they were sad and wished they did not die then they may dream of that family member to fulfill the wish/desire and if they are angry at the world because of the death they may have violent dreams reflecting their own anger. I feel that the levels of depression and what turns up in dreams depends wildly on the persons own upbringing and coping mechanisms. If they were foster children without parents they would most likely present with issues relating to the lack of parenting this is the same way that if they had a good upbringing and just decided to be emo and depressed all the time it would reflect in a different way that you can imagine. Its kind of a weird mirroring effect of the mind, where whatever good or bad is going on in your life shows up in your subconscious wishes/desires, sometimes backwards and sometimes forwards. Sometimes your depressed and wish for attention so you cause harm to yourself and you get the dreams that come with that and sometimes your depressed and cut yourself but you don't want attention, you just want to feel pain and or die you will get your wish played out for you in your dreams. Change your life and the dreams change to more happy ones, Its kind of the SARP technique again but back-wards. I have tried to explain many times that your mind is like a lake's water surface, under is your dreams and above your waking consciousness. What happens in your waking life "SARP" directly affect your dreaming life, and whatever happens in your dreams directly effects your waking life again using "SARP" I have found that you can apply the same principle both ways, where as you can get lucid using SARP and while in your dream use a modified version of SARP to influence your waking life. For example if you need practice at "bowling" you can SARP into a lucid and SARP out bowling skill, I have not made it really clear how this works yet but if people are interested i may be able to write a guide somewhere on my improvements to the "SARP" technique and how to use it in reverse. You just have to remember one thing about all states of consciousness, and that is that every state is one half of another state which can't exist without its twin. Two sides of a coin, two sides to water, matter, walls, oxygen molecules and anything you can ever think hear or see "Matter/Dark-matter/Gravity/Anti-gravity". If you really look at what you are thinking and how you interpret the world there are always two sides to every thing, two sides to conversation and language and when talking to another person you must realize that what you say to them directly effects them on their side of the coin and what they say bounces back causing the same effect which we call learning.

Sorry if i rambled, I'm very tired and hope i got my point across well enough.  

[Moonbeam]

The one who thinks they are ugly will most likely have dreams reflecting that feeling, for example teeth falling out or being naked in class.

Have you done a study correlating a feelings of ugliness with teeth falling out or being naked?  Do you have any anecdotal evidence for this?  Or do you actually have absolutely no idea if those things go together, and are just making it up?  

Two sides of a coin, two sides to water, matter, walls, oxygen molecules and anything you can ever think hear or see "Matter/Dark-matter/Gravity/Anti-gravity". If you really look at what you are thinking and how you interpret the world there are always two sides to every thing, two sides to conversation and language and when talking to another person you must realize that what you say to them directly effects them on their side of the coin and what they say bounces back causing the same effect which we call learning.

Whoa.  I think I understand now.

[IndigoGhost]

The one who thinks they are ugly will most likely have dreams reflecting that feeling, for example teeth falling out or being naked in class.

Have you done a study correlating a feelings of ugliness with teeth falling out or being naked?  Do you have any anecdotal evidence for this?  Or do you actually have absolutely no idea if those things go together, and are just making it up?

Psychology is one of my interests, I'm just relating what was in case studies from various different sources I have read over the years and their is a correlation or a pattern in my opinion.

Whoa.  I think I understand now.

Probably mocking me, but whatever. I don't much understand sarcasm in threads. 

[Moonbeam]

The one who thinks they are ugly will most likely have dreams reflecting that feeling, for example teeth falling out or being naked in class.

Have you done a study correlating a feelings of ugliness with teeth falling out or being naked?  Do you have any anecdotal evidence for this?  Or do you actually have absolutely no idea if those things go together, and are just making it up?

Psychology is one of my interests, I'm just relating what was in case studies from various different sources I have read over the years and their is a correlation or a pattern in my opinion.

OK, good.  Those seem to be such common dreams, practically universal, it seems hard to believe they are all people who think they are ugly.

Probably mocking me, but whatever. I don't much understand sarcasm in threads. 

Actually, I was serious.  I thought about apologizing for giving you a hard time.  I just wish people would think about what they are saying before posting in new peoples' threads.  Probably the same could be said to me for starting arguments in them.  Wait, it was said to me.  I'll try not to do it anymore.  I wish there was some response to posts like that, but I'm not a good one to make them.

I need to start a thread where people can attack me, so I won't always feel like the bad guy...

[IndigoGhost]

OK, good.  Those seem to be such common dreams, practically universal, it seems hard to believe they are all people who think they are ugly.

Think about how common it is for people to think they have imperfections, almost all humans do but to varying degrees. This is why its a common dream, more common in women because women are the gender that are most effected in the world by how they look and thus have more stigma and worry attached to it. Men have these dreams also but a lot of the time instead of dreaming about their own imperfections they dream about their girlfriend/wife cheating on them because of those imperfections. I can't say this is the same for everyone but like i say it all depends on how the person is brought up and their own view of themselves as well as their coping mechanisms.

Actually, I was serious.  I thought about apologizing for giving you a hard time.  I just wish people would think about what they are saying before posting in new peoples' threads.  Probably the same could be said to me for starting arguments in them.  Wait, it was said to me.  I'll try not to do it anymore.  I wish there was some response to posts like that, but I'm not a good one to make them.

I'm glad if you were able to understand better what I'm talking about. I don't always come across correctly for obvious lost in translation reasons that i can't really do anything about, I wish i could but its sometimes very hard for me to explain what I'm seeing in my minds eye. I'm not mad or anything for you giving me a hard time as you did what you thought was right and i completely understand that, I only said what was said in the other thread because its what came into my mind at the time and was interested to see what his response would be, in a way its like fishing where sometimes you have to throw out a certain lure to catch a certain fish but sometimes you don't know which one you need and this can either result in catching nothing and being a waste which is fine as you can always try again or doing what it did in this case which is aggravate the other fishermen/woman by improper use of a lure which they worried would scare away the fish even if that was not the case. I would not have said what was said unless it was clear that the person would not take offense to it and he did not, I make sure that when I'm pushing boundaries that its always just behind the line of acceptability. This is the way i work, I say strange things or do strange things because it stops people for a second and makes them look at things in a different perspective, which clearly happened or we would not still be talking about it. I know some people won't understand it but that's just my way of keeping things fresh and if we stuck to facts and figures the whole time there would be nothing knew to learn or nothing interesting to get us intrigued to go further. I don't blame you at all so don't worry, Its always my fault anyway   

[Moonbeam]

OK, good.  Those seem to be such common dreams, practically universal, it seems hard to believe they are all people who think they are ugly.

Think about how common it is for people to think they have imperfections, almost all humans do but to varying degrees. This is why its a common dream, more common in women because women are the gender that are most effected in the world by how they look and thus have more stigma and worry attached to it. Men have these dreams also but a lot of the time instead of dreaming about their own imperfections they dream about their girlfriend/wife cheating on them because of those imperfections. I can't say this is the same for everyone but like i say it all depends on how the person is brought up and their own view of themselves as well as their coping mechanisms.

People in China get less cancer than the people in the U.S.  People in China play more ping-pong than people in the U.S.  Therefore, playing ping-pong prevents cancer.  Do you think that is good reasoning?

In any case, I don't think they are more common in women.  I've read a lot of DJ's.  And if they were, you could just as easily attribute them to a belief that one is beautiful, and the dreams are a result of anxiety about losing beauty.  What would you say if I said that was my hypothesis?  How do you think we could figure out who was right?  Wouldn't we actually have to study it, instead of just producing these speculations out of our asses?

I don't recall any dreams right now about a partner cheating, male or female dreamer.  I'm sure it happens, but it's not a common dream, like nakedness. (At least, it's not common amongst people who are likely to journal their dreams on the internet, which is the only dreams I am familiar with.)   

Without actually correlating, speculation is meaningless.  Even with correlation, you haven't determined causation. 

And that's where Freud went wrong.  Too much speculation, not enough use of the scientific method.

[IndigoGhost]

People in China get less cancer than the people in the U.S.  People in China play more ping-pong than people in the U.S.  Therefore, playing ping-pong prevents cancer.  Do you think that is good reasoning?

People get less cancer I would assume because of a somewhat better diet and less toxic pollutants in everything they touch/eat/drink. Also ping-pong does prevent cancer, if you take an American that does not and a china-man that does play then the china-man will be more healthy as he is getting exercise while the American sits on his butt all day. So what your saying is I'm right? Because for sure if you took it to the labs then a person that's more healthy through exercise would have a huge advantage of not dieing from cancer. 

In any case, I don't think they are more common in women.  I've read a lot of DJ's.  And if they were, you could just as easily attribute them to a belief that one is beautiful, and the dreams are a result of anxiety about losing beauty.  What would you say if I said that was my hypothesis?  How do you think we could figure out who was right?  Wouldn't we actually have to study it, instead of just producing these speculations out of our asses?

I don't recall any dreams right now about a partner cheating, male or female dreamer.  I'm sure it happens, but it's not a common dream, like nakedness. (At least, it's not common amongst people who are likely to journal their dreams on the internet, which is the only dreams I am familiar with.)   

Without actually correlating, speculation is meaningless.  Even with correlation, you haven't determined causation. 

And that's where Freud went wrong.  Too much speculation, not enough use of the scientific method.

How do you suppose we get get all these scientific studies done? You can front the multimillion dollar bill, because its all gonna be a waste anyway. You don't need science to know if something works or not, you simply use it yourself and if its useful then great, screw the science. I forget what it was now but back when i was in school the teacher was reading us out of a text book in class and i stood up and questioned what was said because it did not make sense to me, I quickly got sent to detention and was in detention every lunch break for a week because i questioned the integrity of the teacher and science. When the end of school tests came about everyone put down the answer just as the teacher told them despite my rebuttal. Every single one of those idiots got the question wrong on their exam because they blindly followed what the teacher/superior in science told them and a bunch of them actually remembered what i had said and came to show me their test results. (I did not do any tests at school because my score would always be very low because of my picture learning issues in a class full of book learners, I simply chose not to do any exams and still have no qualifications in anything to this day.) This is what I'm talking about in a macro example, I just don't trust scientific data and in the large scale of things, no data is ever correct so why care? Just go with what you know for yourself and forget everyone else. The only thing school and education ever did for me was crush my creativity, explain how i was going to fail at life and to make me hate learning new things as they forced them on me. It took me many years to forget everything i had learned at school and many years to understand that learning was not unhappy or forced, which is when i started learning again on my own in the things i was interested in and it became fun and nothing like school. School and education is there to crush your spirit and turn you into a mind-less robot, understand this and you win the game.

[johnb]

School and education is there to crush your spirit and turn you into a mind-less robot, understand this and you win the game.

Unfortunately you're right, in many cases. But not all. There are still some great schools. The main thing is to never let school interfere with your education. I think Mark Twain said that.

[majic]

School taught me how to read and write - I taught myself how to think and thats a great advantage. I also have next to no qualifications, think indpendently, debate everything and genrally swim against the flow and its all a wonderful way to be

[Burned up]

In one of our other threads and enthusiastic debates, the issue of Freud came up and it was suggested that he was wrong about everything.

I can't speak in general, not being a Freud expert and even a person particularly interested in Psych in general. But I did read "The Interpretation of Dreams". It was the very first book I ever read on the subject of dreams. Read it several decades ago.

The core premise behindFreud's dream interpretation method and model, is that ALL dreams are wish fulfillments. This comes in two flavors:

1) Obvious wish fulfillments (e.g.  you win the lottery, you get a great new job, etc ...)

2) Latent wish fulfillments (e.g. you dream you are 10 and your younger brother dies. The dream is freightening, but it fulfills a latent wish for your brothers demise so you can reap the benefit of all of your parents attention, not just half).

Personally, I still see this model as a bit restrictive. But I happen to believe it has merit. What do you think?

Rather simplistic, I think.  I'm sure there's an element of wish fulfilment in dreams but I would think it's impossible for any of us to say with certainty exactly what dreams represent other than that they consist of thoughts which seem to evade conscious rationalisation.

Dreams seem to expose hidden (subconscious?) thoughts so taboo subjects might appear as well as many fears. What the books don't seem to discuss is just how monotonous many dreams are, about everyday events (work, family, trains...)

[Moonbeam]

People get less cancer I would assume because of a somewhat better diet and less toxic pollutants in everything they touch/eat/drink. Also ping-pong does prevent cancer, if you take an American that does not and a china-man that does play then the china-man will be more healthy as he is getting exercise while the American sits on his butt all day. So what your saying is I'm right? Because for sure if you took it to the labs then a person that's more healthy through exercise would have a huge advantage of not dieing from cancer. 

My point is that they play more ping-pong because they don't have cancer.  They got cause and effect mixed up.

[IndigoGhost]

People get less cancer I would assume because of a somewhat better diet and less toxic pollutants in everything they touch/eat/drink. Also ping-pong does prevent cancer, if you take an American that does not and a china-man that does play then the china-man will be more healthy as he is getting exercise while the American sits on his butt all day. So what your saying is I'm right? Because for sure if you took it to the labs then a person that's more healthy through exercise would have a huge advantage of not dieing from cancer.  

My point is that they play more ping-pong because they don't have cancer.  They got cause and effect mixed up.

I don't play ping-pong and don't have cancer "I hope", and there's gotta be people out there with cancer who love ping-pong.  

We are two side's of the same coin, each of us finds it hard to see the others view. That's cool though as it makes the game fair, heads or tails.