strange early auditory dream state?

[IndigoGhost]

Too bad you can't go live in the time before science, eh, IG?  Ignorance is so bliss, and people were much better off when nobody knew anything and and everybody was like you, believing in magic and ghosts and all the other made-up stuff swirling around in your mind.  You should be comforted by the fact that you are in the majority, but for some reason, the irrational are always offended by even the very tiny number of rational people around.  There are places where it's less of a bother than where you are now, seeing as how now you obviously have access to everything that science has provided; maybe you can find one of those less-advanced places to live.  Or not live, if you happen to get sick and need treatments developed by science, instead of a witch-doctor or prayers or whatever you would get there.  Good luck with that.

Lol, I do know best because of science.    That's the whole point.  I should put that in my sig.  

Hickory dickory dock
The scientist ran up the clock
The clock struck one
The scientist ran down
Hickory dickory dock.

Little boxes, no understanding, Little boxes. ~

Your stuck and there is no point even talking to you about these things unless your slightly autistic or in my case have a form of Savantism. You have to understand how to be outside of the box of your own reality to see into another reality that explains what it is in its own existence and experiential findings. You have to forget "everything" you know and start fresh. If you see an apple falling from a tree you say "Oh that's gravity!" If i see an apple falling from a tree "Oh that's interesting, why did it fall? I wonder what its purpose of falling is, and why was i here to see it, and whats up with this falling thing anyway!"

Science is the Science of fruitfuller limited discovery of what is already accepted as truth even if proven wrong.

super-hearing, ESP, etc. as IG is speculating.

Ever experienced a "peak experience?" I can show you how if you really wanted to. It will blow your mind about how much information the brain can gather without using the senses & even with the senses. So much so that you can see every blade of grass in a field intimately, you see every bug and every movement as though everything is in slow motion. Experience that and tell me what i say is not true, you probably can't though because it does not exist right?

Your science limits you from the amazing, and for that IndigoGhost feels sorry for you.  



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

Yes, I can WIKI also.

[Rhapsode]

A skeptic is somebody who requires evidence.  Therefore if you believe things without evidence, you are not a skeptic.

All-or-nothing thinking is a cancer of the mind, Moonbeam. I do 'require evidence' when judging the merits of an hypothesis and use Occam's razor when multiple explanations present themselves, as is customary. I think this qualifies me to say that I tend to be skeptical. But I also keep an open mind when hearing other's explanations, counting their experiences as a type of evidence, and also like to piece things together for myself based on personal experience. This last part is called being an individual.

If he really wants to find out what is known about SP, that is, and not just make stuff up about it.

He's proposing a hypothesis. Science wouldn't have gotten very far without those.

Science is not religion, by definition, therefore "the religion of science" is a meaningless phrase that you read somewhere and now use without even thinking about what it means.

 

That was a very petty statement, Moon, and a personal attack that I feel was unwarranted. You do not know me well enough to make that kind of supercilious judgment.  

Most participants of any religion hate to be classified by that word as well, so I understand why it would be upsetting. But I see an immense similarity when science hard-liners refuse to accept anything outside of their dogma because the current scientific method is the 'end all, be all' process of verifying any and all forms of reality; this being your belief is evidenced by the rest of the paragraph which this quote was taken from. You say that science is "a process which in part involves gathering evidence with the goal of increasing knowledge about reality." Where do you think every religion known to man stems from? Humans attempting to explain who we are and why we are here in relation to the world around us. You say that the ideas proposed in religion have no correspondence to reality -- but myths have been found to be rooted in some truth. They tell us of floods, earthquakes, and devastating changes to the Earth's environment, such as the ice age, before we ever developed the means to detect these things by geology or archaeology, and which later verified that some of these events did indeed happen. They tell us the histories of kings, famous leaders, prophets, people who had a tremendous impact on their culture and whose stories were transmitted as an early form of history. In this respect religions have benefited humanity tremendously, just as the scientific method is doing now.

It is your dismissive attitude towards Indigo Ghost's proposition that I compare to the negative attributes of religion. He did not use the dogma you use to craft his explanation so you immediately shut it down. There is no understanding to be gained by this. Your following arguments are very much along these lines so I will not respond to them in any length.

As for what I mean by the things seen in a hypnogogic state being perhaps 'symbolic of underlying processes', I mean the workings of the unconscious mind manifesting itself in the various stimuli experienced. This is certainly the commonly accepted explanation for dreams, so I see little difficulty in transferring it to an interpretation of the state immediately prior to dreaming.

[IndigoGhost]

It is your dismissive attitude towards Indigo Ghost's proposition that I compare to the negative attributes of religion

Moonbeam does that to all my posts/threads/questions. I don't mind and its okay, I understand that she was brought up in school and Indigo was brought up learning things for himself without guidance and teachers to craft his itty-bitty mind into a molded structure that will benefit society in its already established beliefs. I understand she can't help it, and that is fine. It does interest me thought that the 99.99% of people that get a normal education take on MB's views and the very few who leave school early or do not have a formal education seem to be the ones that actually figure things out while other "scientists" claim it as their own work. Seriously, take a look at all the trend setters in the past and there are generally two guidelines of genius which are individualist thought which comes from not going to school or leaving formal education early, or having some form of autism or commonly considered brain defect. I go off on a tangent, but its really interesting to me that school and tv and one in the same, a form of re-reinforcing a belief system that humans are weak and frail creatures who are 3D forms that follow an evolutionary structure that die and are gone forever, where human life is to be lived as if we are not unique in any way, just here to breed have fun work and die. 

[Sunshine]

(content removed by user request)

[IndigoGhost]

I doubt IG would argue that the designs for a new plane that he just imagined would be fine to use, and I doubt you would fly on his plane.

Fyi: Autistic picture thinker, I can create a whole plane in my mind's eye if i have the basic understanding of how planes work. I simply just need to piece it out into parts then figure out how to combine them using knowledge that i have about aeronautics and when i have done that, I combine them in my minds eye and visualize how they are effected by gravity. I can then draw the pieces and put them together to make a working plane, the only hard part would be scale but that only takes adjustment. You cant do this, and this is why you can understand what i do. Give me a room full of scientists a sound to frequency generator and some sleep subjects and let me broadcast on all channels possible while they are trying to sleep and we will see what happens. Oh right! i forget, I would not be allowed to host the experiment because i don't have enough scientific data to prove my theory and before they would even test it they would deny it because it goes against the scientific community. Some people can sing, some can play the violin, some can run for a very long time and IndigoGhost can think in complex pictures and angles to figure out how things work.

I am done speaking now though, be off scoundrel. 

[Sunshine]

(content removed by user request)

[AspirationRealized]

I remember during WILD attempts I would hear something... nothing too fancy or important, nothing to write home about, but something I hadn't heard otherwise. It was closest to static I think but it definitely wasn't external in source.

And I've also had times where something presumably said in a dream has jarred me awake. In that moment I think its from waking life ans im. confused but  then I realize it was from the dream.

I wish I had more interesting hallucinations but it rarely ever happens for me and certainly not in the interesting way that I've heard from MM. And while both of those occasions constitute an almost asleep state I don' think I've experienced [anything like] Tom described.

EDIT:

After reading the mostly off topic mess that is page two I would like to point out that lucid dreaming itself was one of those concepts that was pointless to talk about because it was just people making it up.  It took someone to bother attempting to test it to confirm it as a truth.

What I am getting here is maybe there's merits to both belief and the scientific method and that if they were as at odds as they appear to be in this rambling argument we wouldn't be here discussing it right now.

[Sunshine]

(content removed by user request)

[AspirationRealized]

Wasn't lucid dreaming new agey psycho-babble until it was confirmed? I don't see the difference as you laid it out. Your view of religion is that its fictional, and yet it has more widespread belief that lucid dreaming does. People are comparing their beliefs of that all the time.

Anyways I wrote that as a side note, I didn't intend to get wrapped up into an argument of what constitutes evidence, whether or not home schooling is better than traditional education, or any of the other unrelated things that seem to keep popping up in these threads. What I was getting at is this conversation is pointless because you're all unmoving in your opinions. If anything the end result will be negative, if there's a change at all (and when members feel insulted, some would say thats already negative). It might be better to just let people express their beliefs, since apparently there's a lot of lucid dreamers who keep that aspect in mind when they are discussing it. I'm not commenting on whether they're right or not, but what promotes a better discussion. Butting your heads together endlessly isn't going to do anything, you may as well agree to disagree and go back to talking about whatever the thread is for.

Back to the topic I was thinking about this at work and remembered some other things that had occurred to me. Often times when I get awoken from dreams as I mentioned in my earlier post it'll be because my name was called in the dream. When I just wake up I feel as though it was from the waking world, so I sort of wake with a (gentle) start, realize it was the dream and nothing is there, and go back to sleep. It all happens so fast that I barely remember it. But I've heard my name called to get my attention in a variety of ways. I've been yelled at commandingly, I've had it spoken to me as if someone was to tap me on the shoulder and gently get my attention, I've heard it from dream characters that represented significant others saying my name in a loving fashion, and I've heard it whispered as well.

I also have heard voices, but nothing like what Tom said with a bunch of voices. But I'll hear something, dream residue I guess, and when I wake up I will feel as though it came from somewhere in the room. I don't actually believe it came from somewhere in the room, I think my mind is tricking me using the proximity of the voice to suggest its nearby (sort of like throwing your voice) but its an interesting effect nonetheless.

Still, not enough for me to be satisfied. Sometimes I wish I had the hag just once to experience it, even if it'd freak me the hell out.

[Serenity]

What I was getting at is this conversation is pointless because you're all unmoving in your opinions. If anything the end result will be negative, if there's a change at all (and when members feel insulted, some would say thats already negative). It might be better to just let people express their beliefs, since apparently there's a lot of lucid dreamers who keep that aspect in mind when they are discussing it. I'm not commenting on whether they're right or not, but what promotes a better discussion. Butting your heads together endlessly isn't going to do anything, you may as well agree to disagree and go back to talking about whatever the thread is for.

This.

Sometimes I wish I had the hag just once to experience it, even if it'd freak me the hell out.

Ooh, not me :( You would not believe how relieved I was to find out that that was a symptom of parasomnia or whatever it's called.

[Sunshine]

(content removed by user request)

[AspirationRealized]

 

You may as well quit moderating and not worry about the things that you have absolutely no interest in.  
    

By my count with this post I'll have more posts addressing the topic than you do. You're not interested in this, you left "I get all sorts of sounds in sp all the time" then derailed the thread into a debate about evidence. If someone wants to determine whether this is what you'll do in their thread they need only flip a coin.

Youre always forcing your atheist/skeptic crusade  and everyone is tired of hearing it, just no one has the balls to say anything.


@Seren I didn't know you had the hag before! You should tell me later tonight or even post it here for everyone to see (or even link it, if its already in your dream journal or something).

The idea of the hag, the experience, is frightening to me even just from descriptions. One of my first dreaming buddies who is unfortunately inactive now, Flavor of Night, had them as a child and just imagining from his descriptions was scary. Its the stuff horror stories and ghost allegations are made of and yet it has a perfectly rational explanation. The harmlessness of it, once you figure out what it is, somehow makes it more interesting to me.

[IndigoGhost]

Similarly, if somebody has a lucid dream, and they talk to other people who have them, they all know that it's possible, right?  It doesn't matter if somebody who has never had one doesn't believe them.

I thought it was our job to prove with scientific evidence that which we believe is true to others who do not or have not experienced it as you yourself said to me. I guess it does not matter as long as you have your own experiential evidence, because those other people that don't who question your word are just idiots right?

So how are claims of supernatural and paranormal experience different?  Most people think those things are true, and probably most people think they have experienced it.  However, when you look at what people say they are experiencing, it doesn't correlate with objective reality

Objective reality is different to everyone, for example a group of people who are blind would not understand another group who can see because their own objective reality is different.

(No philosophical discussion of reality "really is" is needed; it's not that deep, the common experience of people is enough.

There is that word again, "Experience" - "Common", not facts as you have told me countless time's are the most important things as well as being wrong as there is no "Common Experience" because everyone experiences the world differently even if its slight. Why are experiences that indigoghost has different to moonbeams where hers are more worthy of acceptance.

No example of real clairvoyance has ever been documented, nobody has ever predicted the future in a way that could be substantiated, nobody has had a shared dream that was even close to being objectively, etc.  Nobody claims to be able to do these things "on command" (except charlatans), and it's easy to see (by an objective person) that when they think it has happened, there is another, much more likely explanation.

Many examples have been notes, from the 1500's up until modern day, you just don't hear about them because people like yourself in the scientific community badger and bash those who can do, and eventually there is only so much hate and ridicule someone can take before they give up and say, hey... ok, I will go away now. Most of the real ones have a choice, go underground or join the black projects. Most that join the projects you never hear from again and the rest of them you just don't hear from again. There is, however a lot of documented cases that are in the public domain that nobody can explain  and if its really necessary then indigoghost can pull some up for you to scorn and ridicule all while saying "testing methods were not good enough".

When you take IG's claims to be able to hear the electromagnetic spectrum during SP, it's hard to believe because we don't know any organ in the human capable of that, nobody can sense that while awake or totally asleep or under any other circumstances (I know, fillings in the teeth--but that's an explanation outside a special ability, it's like having a radio).

You silly goose MB, the human brain in itself is doing exactly this the whole time, what do you think sound or vision is? Its your organs interpreting electrical signals from the outside and sending them to the inside for un-encryption and that's how you see and hear, besides that you have the pineal gland which is basically a radio as you would call in your tooth when you get fillings, its just deeper in your brain. Go read some articles on what the pineal gland actually is, its a crystalline structure and as you know can be used as a vibratory radio. I don't have all the hoity-toity 30 letter scientific names for these things that are meant to fool you into thinking they are a lot more complex they are but hopefully from this simple explanation you get the point.

No merit to beliefs without evidence.  Nobody knows anything whatsoever without evidence.  It doesn't matter what it is--it can't be known without evidence.  If somebody "knows" something without evidence, they are just making it up.  That's all there is to it.

Speak for yourself, I have been doing this since my birth and my ideas have a track record for being correct and working like they should, I don't need to be a baby being fed the beliefs of a primitive race of beings known only to pull information from 1000 year old scientific knowings.

For some people, IG claiming something is true without even experiencing it is enough evidence

Those who do, do so because they know indigo has a track record of being right and or correct. If someone was picking lottery numbers and giving them out for free and they come up winners 90% of the time then who would question it and wait until they fully understand it before accepting it and winning a load of money, nobody other then a very stupid scientist that is so stuck in ego they fail to get the game that's being played.

Lol, OK, wasting my time.  Some people just are not capable of understanding.  It's not their fault.  I will tell that how widespread a belief is has nothing to do with whether it's true or not, and saying that just makes you seem uneducated, as well as irrational.

Tee-hee, same could be said exactly about you MB believing the scientific method no matter what even if some dude was levitating and shooting fireballs out of his hands. Widespread belief has nothing to do with whether it's true or not, you mean like classical science?

It has always seemed so strange to me how people who are perfectly intelligent have beliefs that are completely irrational, yet I've known people who are not very smart in a lot of ways but who seem perfectly rational.  So that was very interesting.  It's a pretty good book, even if it was written by a Nobel prize winner in the non-science of economics.

Its because the ones who are smart think for themselves and the ones who are not smart listen to teachers and accept everything they say because they believe the teacher is always right because they are in a position of power and who are they to believe that someone so prestigious as a science teacher could ever be wrong right? Its a case of those who are smart learn smart and those who are stupid are easy to manipulate and tend to cling onto ideas of smarter people "or so they think" to seem smarter themselves. Think about it, lets use the sheep mentality. Sheep's are being herded into a pen and 99% of them comply because they know to follow orders of the smarter sheep dog or Shepard, but one sheep is like.... F*** this shit i'm getting out of here...... because he realizes that it may not be the best method of understanding. In simply terms, smart people find out the truth and dumb people look to others to tell them the truth. Hence its not an experiment in rational thinking, its an experiment in who is easy to manipulate.

Sorry, but I'm never going to just stand by and watch the bullshit pile higher and higher.  You guys will have to vote me off the island if you want me to stop

I already got voted off the chat-room island because indigo talked his mind and said what he actually believes, and did not sugar coat for others. Who would you rather trust, a person who changed his answer to suit the majority or someone who says what is true because that's what he believes in and he is an honest person and refuses to tell lies to make others feel better? Its a catch-22 of being true to yourself which most are not.

Youre always forcing your atheist/skeptic crusade and everyone is tired of hearing it, just no one has the balls to say anything.

I have the balls, but that's what got me banned last time, so saner minds prevail  .




  

[Sunshine]

(content removed by user request)

[IndigoGhost]

Everything in this thread.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oScCgxuId98[/youtube]

Nobody once has answered the question about things they believe in without any evidence.  If you think about it, you will realize it's not just not possible.

Vita post mortem, our jimmies are eternal.