Author Topic: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY  (Read 2017 times)

Offline melanie_schaedlich

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PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« on: December 03, 2012, 05:20:51 PM »
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 12:58:12 PM by melanie_schaedlich »

Offline arliatis

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 01:11:29 PM »
Ah so this is how its linked to sport science.

I remember in my last year of school I told my Physical Education teacher that lucid dreaming can be used as a form of.... 'Mental skills training' and I wanted to write an essay on it.
He told me not to because it wasn't documented well enough, and they markers would fail me! I hope this shows light towards me being right to believe lucid dreaming can be beneficial for sport.
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Offline melanie_schaedlich

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 04:13:04 PM »
Ah so this is how its linked to sport science.
I remember in my last year of school I told my Physical Education teacher that lucid dreaming can be used as a form of.... 'Mental skills training' and I wanted to write an essay on it.
He told me not to because it wasn't documented well enough, and they markers would fail me! I hope this shows light towards me being right to believe lucid dreaming can be beneficial for sport.

Hi arliatis,

wow - I think it is great that you did want to write about that topic! What a pity that your teacher advised you against it! Well, on the other hand he had a point: the applications of lucid dreaming in sports has not really been demonstrated - scientifically spoken. Well, it was and is not so badly documented since there seem to be quite interesting case reports and case studies, published in journals. But so far there is only one study which actually addressed the effect of lucid dreaming on motor performance enhancement: Erlacher, D. & Schredl, M. (2010). Practice of an aiming task in lucid dreams: A quasi-experimental study. The Sport Psychologist, 24(2), 157-167. I will add the paper in the article section - please remind me if I forget. ;) There are, however other papers who deal with the topic indirectly and show correlations of dreamed motor actions and physical motor actions. My colleague Tadas and I are still working on showing (or trying to show) the implacations of LD for sports! This kind of research is still at the very beginning!

For your essay it would have been great, though, if you could have discussed the potentia of LDs for sports, based upon findings from mental rehearsal and case reports with lucid dream practise. I think it could have been a nice essay. But with a topic like this it could be hard indeed to convince the markers - depending on how open minded they are. Also, you probably would have had difficulties finding all the case reports and studies there were at the time!

The experience you had with your teacher reminded me a bit of my own struggles to find a lecturer in Bonn for (officially) supervising my diploma thesis which was about the time of a motor task while dreaming lucid compared to wakefulness. I was lucky that I found an official supervisor and I was also extremely lucky that I had found Daniel Erlacher before that who invited me to do the research for my diploma thesis in his lab in Heidelberg! For planning my PhD I had the same problem: there were no funded PhD positions, of course, in such a specific area of research as lucid dreaming. Also there is not such a big research community. For me the best thingto do was to stick with sports sciences (and Daniel Erlacher & colleagues) and to conintue with lucid dream research within this team. But that also means that I have to link LD to spor again (which is ecxiting, of course, but there are other research questions I would like to investigate about LD. Of course, I can try to do other studies apart from my PhD, but that is difficult: Since I chose to stick to my favourite research topic and hobby lucid dreaming, I have no PhD position, but I just do it "on my own" (supervised, of course). Thus I have a part time job to make a living and tehre is not much time left for extra research. ;)

By the way, if you (or anyone else) is interested in my diploma thesis, I would be happy to send it to you - just write me a PM then.

What was or essay about then instead? Anything connected to LD?


Offline melanie_schaedlich

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 04:15:26 PM »
regarding my last question: probably it was not connected - since the subject was P.E. ;)

Offline Snaggle

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012, 05:44:16 PM »
  Sleep learning is well documented and one could certainly develop "muscle memory" for techniques in sports in lucid dreams. The problem is that most of the major sports have techniques that are too simple to benefit much from lucid training. There are exceptions: most martial arts; wrestling and fencing could certainly benefit and so would American football as one could better memorize the plays and run simulations of them in lucid dreams that would be far superior to skirmishes usually used to practice them in training, unfortunately lucid dreams have two defect for such usage: one most people only have extremely short lucid dreams and secondly there's the problem of dream control in them, both in creating the lucid dream and in not having super powers in them.


Offline arliatis

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 02:38:12 AM »
Thats interesting, I still find it funny how my high school actively discouraged me to think outside the box, and just follow the textbook to get my marks.
That been said I had to write an essay on how meditation can benefit sport..... personally I think lucid dreaming has more potential.
Perhaps after a few researches related to sport, you'll be able to work on your own ideas. What are they by the way?

Its been a while since I've thought about the topic, but I remember my theory was along the lines of:
1. A memory 'plan' needs to be developed in the brain. (excuse my lax terminology)
    e.g. I want to kick a football 20m, with in 2 posts... say 1m apart.
2. The memory 'plan' needs to be sent to another section of the brain where it... guesses the correct neuromuscular action.
    e.g. The guad muscles need to be contracted at x time, calf muscles at x time ect.
3. Did 1 = 2
    e.g. I kicked the ball too shorter distance say 15m..... therefor the neuromuscular action didn't result in the desired effect..... ok try again with different neuromuscular stimulation.

Lucid dreaming in my eyes could be used as essentially training while you sleep. You could develop all the skills in motor learning apart from actually sending the nerve impulses through the body. While this is essential in sport obviously, training time in real life could be more efficient because the motor learning is more advanced in somebody who's been developing the 'brain'-side throughout the night, as opposed to somebody who's just been sleeping normally.

  Sleep learning is well documented and one could certainly develop "muscle memory" for techniques in sports in lucid dreams. The problem is that most of the major sports have techniques that are too simple to benefit much from lucid training. There are exceptions: most martial arts; wrestling and fencing could certainly benefit and so would American football as one could better memorize the plays and run simulations of them in lucid dreams that would be far superior to skirmishes usually used to practice them in training, unfortunately lucid dreams have two defect for such usage: one most people only have extremely short lucid dreams and secondly there's the problem of dream control in them, both in creating the lucid dream and in not having super powers in them.


I think I would argue the opposite direction. Simple tasks could benefit the most from lucid dreams not complex tasks. In may example above, my theory is that it would improve the speed in which somebody could learn a new motor action, which you would class as simple?
What do you mean by most sports are too simple? I would say most sports have a great deal of complex tasks if you want to be the best.

Take for example tennis. How hard can it be to hit a ball over a net? Well in itself not really, but if you want to incorporate the optimal speed, spin, accuracy, and apply it to a scenario which you only have less than a second to prepare for, I would consider that quite complicated. Which is why Professional players still make errors, no matter how much they train. Complicated tasks I think would be least likely to benefit from lucid dreaming mainly because of the fact that, extremely rarely do people become 'fully lucid' and it would seem to me that tasks requiring a lot of thought could only be practiced in these rare dreams. Simple tasks such as a 'forhand down-the-line' could be practised with out much detailed memory, and as a result more likely to be applied in lucid dreams where we aren't so aware.

As far as the lucid dream requirements go, while yes a lot of lucid dreams are short (and very annoyingly) thats why we practise methods to increase dream stability, and hopefully increase the time spent in dreams. While its hard I agree, I don't think its impossible especially if you spend a lot of time practising. The same goes for dream control; with time, patience and training its seems possible to me that it could work. 
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Offline melanie_schaedlich

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 06:28:17 AM »
  Sleep learning is well documented and one could certainly develop "muscle memory" for techniques in sports in lucid dreams.

Yes, sleep learning in general is well documented. So that could have been something to base the essay on. I just meant that the actualy practise effect has not yet been demonstrated except for that one pilot study I mentioned.

The problem is that most of the major sports have techniques that are too simple to benefit much from lucid training.

I would not say that. In general different approaches are thinkable: LD practice in motor learning vs. LD practice in performance enhancement. The next question is what is to be practiced: it could be a sequence of movements or just a single movement or a certain technique. But also general abilities like balance could be practiced. Furthermore: Who says that you have to take techniques from physical training? Lucid dreamers have the opprtunity to practice in slow motion or speeded up. Of course, this is all still hypothetical. Of course, there are many case reports published and you can find even more in forums like here, but in research these do not count as proof. Still I am grateful that they exist because we can use them as inspirations for our studies and, even more important - they count as hints that something lucid training could indeed be effective and therefore they at least "justify" our research to some extent.

There are exceptions: most martial arts; wrestling and fencing could certainly benefit and so would American football as one could better memorize the plays and run simulations of them in lucid dreams that would be far superior to skirmishes usually used to practice them in training,

I would not call these exceptions. Various kinds of mental practice is used in many many sports (and this really is well documneted in studies and even in meta analyses!) So lucid practice could possibly be effective in these sports as well and maybe even in others, because some things are hard to imagine, but in a dream they easily become a "real experience". Of course, the dream state brings along alll kind of other problems, like disturbances or (false) awakenings, a general instability for the inexperienced.

unfortunately lucid dreams have two defect for such usage: one most people only have extremely short lucid dreams and secondly there's the problem of dream control in them, both in creating the lucid dream and in not having super powers in them.

That's very true. And that is only the "second" problem. The first problem is to actually make athletes lucid (regularly and stabile)! Lucid dreaming will never be a broadly applied technique! For example, if you take a soccer/ football team and you want them to practice penalties: Those who are not open-minded towards the topic (and therefore not motivated) and those who have a very low dream recall frequency, have a very little chancce from the beginning to even become lucid, not to speak of practicing in a lucid dream...Lucid dream training will hopefully become an accepted technique one day and will then probably be an additional technique for individuals who use mental practice and who are able to induce lucid dreams at will (at least sometimes).





Offline melanie_schaedlich

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 07:19:55 AM »
Thats interesting, I still find it funny how my high school actively discouraged me to think outside the box, and just follow the textbook to get my marks.

I know very well what you mean... :(

That been said I had to write an essay on how meditation can benefit sport..... personally I think lucid dreaming has more potential.

Well I think that both techniques are not fitted for everyone. Some individuals might benefit a lot of meditation. Actually, as you might know from the research you did for your essay, meditation already is a part of some mental practice techniques. It can help athletes focus directly before a competition. It might be hard to take a nap dircetly before a competition. ;) For other individuals lucid dreaming could be extremely effective. Maybe lucid dreaming even has greater potential in general but it is less practical (as to the problems stated in my last post), compared to lucid dreaming practice.

Perhaps after a few researches related to sport, you'll be able to work on your own ideas. What are they by the way?

I hope so...I also have to make a living, you know. ;) If after my PhD I should get a university job - there will still be the same problems. You are never really free to to research about just what you like. Even when you are a professor, you still need to apply for research money. No money, no reserach...
Well, for example, I would like to investigate music in (lucid) dreams. It seems like many people have very creative and emotional musical experiences, both in non-lucid and in lucid dreams. Music can have a very healing effect or maybe some people could use these experiences to actually compose music based upon their dream experiences.
Then I would like to investigate WILDs in the lab with a bigger sample. WILDs are extremely interesting and it would be exctiting to show what happens in the brains of people while WILDing. Maybe some go from waking to S1 and then into REM, maybe some go directly from waking into REM...

The same goes for NREM lucid dreams. As it becomes obvious in the discussion part of Tadas Stumbrys' paper which I posted in the article section, scientifically spoken we can not say much about NREM lucid dreams by now.

Its been a while since I've thought about the topic, but I remember my theory was along the lines of:
1. A memory 'plan' needs to be developed in the brain. (excuse my lax terminology)
    e.g. I want to kick a football 20m, with in 2 posts... say 1m apart.
2. The memory 'plan' needs to be sent to another section of the brain where it... guesses the correct neuromuscular action.
    e.g. The guad muscles need to be contracted at x time, calf muscles at x time ect.
3. Did 1 = 2
    e.g. I kicked the ball too shorter distance say 15m..... therefor the neuromuscular action didn't result in the desired effect..... ok try again with different neuromuscular stimulation.

Well, I am sorry to disappoint you, but your theroy already exists. ;) It's called neural simulation theory (at least concerning 1. and 2. - I am not sure if I understand 3.). There are other theories, of course. I do not want to go on about them here - that just would take too much time. The problem is, of course, the missing feedback from both the muscles and the environment. If you kick a ball in waking life, it just flies the way it flies, based on laws of physics. But can your brain calculate the effect right, based upon the motor program and prior experiences? Also, since in a dream the action is not carried out with the physicla body: to what extent (or under what cirumstances) can the brain simulate bodily sensations? Sometimes we feel our body in the dream as if we are awake, sometimes it differs and sometimes we do not feel it at all!

Lucid dreaming in my eyes could be used as essentially training while you sleep. You could develop all the skills in motor learning apart from actually sending the nerve impulses through the body. While this is essential in sport obviously, training time in real life could be more efficient because the motor learning is more advanced in somebody who's been developing the 'brain'-side throughout the night, as opposed to somebody who's just been sleeping normally.

Well said! Ony one remark: sleep itself is necessary to and effective to consolidate new motor actions. So even if we sleep "normally" we do learn. :) But your are right, with lucid dream practice we could benefit even more.

I think I would argue the opposite direction. Simple tasks could benefit the most from lucid dreams not complex tasks.

Could be, but it is not certain. Apart from the task (simple vs. complex) you also should consider the level of experience of the athlete (novice vs. professional) and the familiarity with the task. And then for each task there are different ways of how to practice it... So there are many influencing parameters. :) The old sentence: studies are needed to investigate thes things. :)

What do you mean by most sports are too simple? I would say most sports have a great deal of complex tasks if you want to be the best.

Even in sports sciences there are many ways of how to classify sports and movements as simple and complex. But I get your point, arliatis and I agree: I think most sports could theoretically benefit from LD practice in some way!

As far as the lucid dream requirements go, while yes a lot of lucid dreams are short (and very annoyingly) thats why we practise methods to increase dream stability, and hopefully increase the time spent in dreams. While its hard I agree, I don't think its impossible especially if you spend a lot of time practising. The same goes for dream control; with time, patience and training its seems possible to me that it could work.  

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 07:59:32 AM by melanie_schaedlich »

Offline melanie_schaedlich

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 09:52:21 AM »
I have now posted the abstract of the study I mentioned above in the article section.

Offline Snaggle

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 09:41:59 PM »
Quote

Quote from: Snaggle on December 08, 2012, 05:44:16 PM
The problem is that most of the major sports have techniques that are too simple to benefit much from lucid training.

I would not say that. In general different approaches are thinkable: LD practice in motor learning vs. LD practice in performance enhancement. The next question is what is to be practiced: it could be a sequence of movements or just a single movement or a certain technique. But also general abilities like balance could be practiced. Furthermore: Who says that you have to take techniques from physical training? Lucid dreamers have the opportunity to practice in slow motion or speeded up. Of course, this is all still hypothetical. Of course, there are many case reports published and you can find even more in forums like here, but in research these do not count as proof. Still I am grateful that they exist because we can use them as inspirations for our studies and, even more important - they count as hints that something lucid training could indeed be effective and therefore they at least "justify" our research to some extent.

You made an excellent point, the stories here are anecdotal  evidence, but as lucid dream studies have limited subject bases and are often not even replicated they're not much better than anecdotal evidence either. The whole "imaginary practice" in sports dripped into sports from shooting/ marksmanship. Drying shooting was and is done as it's much easier and cheaper to practice technique with an unloaded gun than to unlearn bad technique. Ideally one works on proper holding, stance and trigger technique with a BB gun and then learns proper shooting technique. Both guns and bows shoot in arches not straight lines. To use traditional archery terms to shoot at a very close range target one have to shoot "under the hand" (aim lower than where one intends to hit) while when shooting long range one needs to shoot "over the hand", "Point blank" does not mean what most people think it does, it's a medium range target where ones missile actually goes where one is aiming. The original "Blank" was a small about pie size white cloth target, that was the main target in traditional archery or say the Tudor period and earlier in England.

 The problem with your idea is that the technique are not even as complicated as shooting and depend more upon physical development than actual training and that even in the case of basket ball where dry shooting is useful, dreamscapes rarely have the actual true feel of real space. One would likely harm ones real performance practicing shooting in lucid dreams. To give a real life example of bad training skeet shooting at clay pigeons is extremely bad practice for real hunting because it teaches one to delay shooting as the clay pigeons slow the longer they've been in the air and become easier to hit, the reverse of real fowl who speed up as they fly and become larger to hit the longer one takes to shoot. 

Quote
Quote from: Snaggle on December 08, 2012, 05:44:16 PM
There are exceptions: most martial arts; wrestling and fencing could certainly benefit and so would American football as one could better memorize the plays and run simulations of them in lucid dreams that would be far superior to skirmishes usually used to practice them in training,

I would not call these exceptions. Various kinds of mental practice is used in many many sports (and this really is well documented in studies and even in meta analyses!) So lucid practice could possibly be effective in these sports as well and maybe even in others, because some things are hard to imagine, but in a dream they easily become a "real experience". Of course, the dream state brings along all kinds of other problems, like disturbances or (false) awakenings, a general instability for the inexperienced.

  This is exactly why the more complicated sport benefit, as technique are really used as combinations against opponents who are also using combination. Dream character can realistically stimulate sparring with real opponents and under a variety of conditions.e.g. in Wu Shu (Chinese martial arts, not to be confused with the modern style called wu shu) one is trained to do sword blocks that if one did them in real life would break ones wrist, in a lucid dream one could both experience that breakage and what it would be like to fight with a broken wrist.

Quote
Quote from: Snaggle on December 08, 2012, 05:44:16 PM
unfortunately lucid dreams have two defect for such usage: one most people only have extremely short lucid dreams and secondly there's the problem of dream control in them, both in creating the lucid dream and in not having super powers in them.

That's very true. And that is only the "second" problem. The first problem is to actually make athletes lucid (regularly and stabile)! Lucid dreaming will never be a broadly applied technique! For example, if you take a soccer/ football team and you want them to practice penalties: Those who are not open-minded towards the topic (and therefore not motivated) and those who have a very low dream recall frequency, have a very little chance from the beginning to even become lucid, not to speak of practicing in a lucid dream...Lucid dream training will hopefully become an accepted technique one day and will then probably be an additional technique for individuals who use mental practice and who are able to induce lucid dreams at will (at least sometimes).

  I assumed as we were talking about training in lucid dreams that our subjects would both be lucid dreamers and have stable lucid dreams, though neither would be true of the typical athlete and their careers whether amateur or pro could well be over before they mastered lucid dreaming. I'm also going to reply to the sleep stages thing, but not now.

Offline Sunshine

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 09:49:43 PM »
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Offline arliatis

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Re: PARTICIPANTS WANTED FOR INTERVIEW STUDY
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »
Well I think that both techniques are not fitted for everyone. Some individuals might benefit a lot of meditation. Actually, as you might know from the research you did for your essay, meditation already is a part of some mental practice techniques. It can help athletes focus directly before a competition. It might be hard to take a nap dircetly before a competition. ;) For other individuals lucid dreaming could be extremely effective. Maybe lucid dreaming even has greater potential in general but it is less practical (as to the problems stated in my last post), compared to lucid dreaming practice.

Yes, to me meditation can be of some benefit and with in relatively quick succession of beginning to practise it, coming from personal experience. Where as lucid dreaming might take a lot longer to gain the skill level able to benefit from training while sleeping. As you said it comes down to whether its practical, would an athlete be willing to spend many hours developing such a skill?

I hope so...I also have to make a living, you know. ;) If after my PhD I should get a university job - there will still be the same problems. You are never really free to to research about just what you like. Even when you are a professor, you still need to apply for research money. No money, no reserach...
Well, for example, I would like to investigate music in (lucid) dreams. It seems like many people have very creative and emotional musical experiences, both in non-lucid and in lucid dreams. Music can have a very healing effect or maybe some people could use these experiences to actually compose music based upon their dream experiences.
Then I would like to investigate WILDs in the lab with a bigger sample. WILDs are extremely interesting and it would be exctiting to show what happens in the brains of people while WILDing. Maybe some go from waking to S1 and then into REM, maybe some go directly from waking into REM...

The same goes for NREM lucid dreams. As it becomes obvious in the discussion part of Tadas Stumbrys' paper which I posted in the article section, scientifically spoken we can not say much about NREM lucid dreams by now.

Music in dreams always seems to sound different. Often I've had the scenario where I'll be standing in a party or at some function with music playing, and songs which I've never heard before will start playing, which are exactly what I look for in electronic music. Once I get set up in RL with equipment, hoping to use lucid dreams as a means to discover these 'ideal' songs, even if its just a means to jumpstart a song.

Studying WILD's would be really cool. I used to help out my psych lecturer at my university in 1st year with her studies. She was studying sleep apnoea though, so wasn't as interesting as WILD's, but still cool to see what its like in a sleep lab.

Well, I am sorry to disappoint you, but your theroy already exists. ;) It's called neural simulation theory (at least concerning 1. and 2. - I am not sure if I understand 3.). There are other theories, of course. I do not want to go on about them here - that just would take too much time. The problem is, of course, the missing feedback from both the muscles and the environment. If you kick a ball in waking life, it just flies the way it flies, based on laws of physics. But can your brain calculate the effect right, based upon the motor program and prior experiences? Also, since in a dream the action is not carried out with the physicla body: to what extent (or under what cirumstances) can the brain simulate bodily sensations? Sometimes we feel our body in the dream as if we are awake, sometimes it differs and sometimes we do not feel it at all!

My mistake *my understanding of that theory.
Thats the big question I guess, is to whether a simulated environment in a dream is close enough (physics wise) to the Real World to make the 'feedback' cycle work. How would you experiment that idea? I guess your study provides some evidence that there's reason to believe that the feedback loop in dreams works (although not as good as a physical feedback loop). Although if there was improvement in people who lucid dreamt the action compared to those that didn't, you might conclude that the dreaming feedback loop while not as perfect as physical feedback loop, still works to cause improvement in the action? I haven't read the article yet, so I'm not sure if I got everything from the abstract.

Well said! Ony one remark: sleep itself is necessary to and effective to consolidate new motor actions. So even if we sleep "normally" we do learn. :) But your are right, with lucid dream practice we could benefit even more.

Of course this is assuming everything else is equal except with dreams that are lucid or non-lucid.

Could be, but it is not certain. Apart from the task (simple vs. complex) you also should consider the level of experience of the athlete (novice vs. professional) and the familiarity with the task. And then for each task there are different ways of how to practice it... So there are many influencing parameters. :) The old sentence: studies are needed to investigate thes things. :)

True, there's a lot of things to consider. But my main reason for thinking simple tasks might benefit more compared to complex tasks (e.g. hitting a tennis ball and running an American football play), would be the amount of lucidity required. Mainly because as you know lucidity is not black and white, there's more of a sliding scale, such as a high-level lucid might be described as being able to remember many things from RL, where as a low-level lucid night be as simple as 'I'm in a dream' with no knowledge of RL or its details. For me high-level lucids are rare to come by. My argument was that simple tasks could be applied to more lucid dreams because the dreamer needs only to remember 'forhand shot' for example. Where as with an American football play, the dreamer would need to remember the play with a reasonable amount of detail.

In general complex tasks could benefit a lot from lucid dreams, although I see them being harder to but into practise. If you can make it work go for it, doubt it will do any damage :)
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