the mortal mist murder

[Sunshine]

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[Shellidfl]

Although I have found the preceding intercourse fascinating, the biggest thing I got out of it is...

Kevin Spacey was Kaisar Soce??

No, in reality, I must agrees whole-hearted, greg.  I think that much of our dreams is just our brains sorting through the garbage of the day.  I do believe that some of our dreams show some kind of promise of something we need to /should learn from.  What we do with it is up to us.  Keeping DJs is a great way to look back on dreams that would otherwise be forgotten and see if we do get that "Aha" moment, or already incorporated it into our lives subconcsiouly unknowingly.
 
As I have only been keeping a DJ for about 7 months now, (and off and on for a few years), I look forward to every-so-often looking back, and hope to find some insights I have then brought into WR.

[greg lousy]

You're shifting the discussion from figuring out things about yourself via symbolism in dreams to the subconscious ways people process information to the point where it become conscious knowledge,

   yeah, kinda - in a nutshell - actually - let me address this first...

I am saying that you don't have to resort to this, especially since you don't even know for sure it's really happening. Just observe what you do and how you feel when you are awake.  That's what gives you the information about yourself that's important, right?  That's what leads to people making good or bad choices, being happy or not happy, etc.

People who don't recall their dreams do the same thing, looking for hidden clues to why they have this or that problem, when all they have to do is accept what's obvious.  I do not know about counseling and psychology and stuff like that, but I think there are a lot more effective ways to change your life.

Again, I agree, I just don't see a reason to offhand dismiss any method.  I'm sure there are people looking into their dreams that are actually escaping the obvious and creating a mystery to get lost in, concocting "answers" to make themselves feel better and all that stuff.  I am also sure that people can do the same things by addressing their conscious thoughts and actions only.  I'm also sure there are people using either these approaches with pure intent who benefit from their efforts.

    If you could only use one, yes, I would go with your conscious action, but if both are at your disposal, I say why not? It will still depend on intent, you've just added a tool.  It can be blown out of perspective and misused like any other method.  There are probably some who would be well advised to look into dreams less, some more. You'd have to really know a person to tell.

   

Weren't we talking about people who don't know why they do what they do, or why they feel the way they feel, and thinking that the knowledge is somewhere in their mind, but inaccessible to their consciousness, and somehow, dreams present that knowledge via symbols, which if you sit and think about and figure out consciously, you will learn something about yourself.  (I don't know if the symbols are supposed to be some kind of purposeful yet very ineffective communication or just accidental leaking out of knowledge that is "supposed to be" hidden for some unknown reason.) 

    First, I'm trying to mainly draw from experience here, so I can't speak for those who gets deep into the symbolism of dreams.  I would guess that the same kind of dynamic I just talked about applies, and that those who consistently look into their dreams symbolically will gain or lose perspective depending on their intent, but I don't know, because thats not me.  I went through a period where I approached dreams symbolically but came to view them as much more.
      Here's where me and you go different ways.  For me, I came to view them as much MORE than symbolic, so thinking of them this way was reductive.  Ahhhhh, trying to avoid an example but it may be best - I'm having a sex dream when a miniature, nerdy looking person with glasses pops out of the closet like a jack in the box. Then sleeks back in - I open the door and ask him what he represents (this is from that phase) - he say's "nothing, I just like to watch things" and uncomfortably sleeks away again.  I'm all lucid and introspective at this point, and I immediately identify with  this little guy - basically - he's the part of myself that hides, wants to see things from a safe distance, turn everything into my safe little internal experience instead of actually acting on things.
     I think he said "no" at first because he was right.  At that moment, he did not "represent" anything - he actually WAS this part of myself - like my last example - things I was consciously aware of but not nearly as aware of as after my run in with this mini-me.  I think he came from my correlating habits in waking life.  Why do I think this? because it was just too perfect a fit.
     Lets say that I wasn't lucid here, but pieced it together later.  Lets say I posted it here and had to talk about it a bit, I still could have gotten the same insight, so long as I was willing to see it (I've got examples for that too) - thats the potential value I see here.
   This is an unusually clear example, but dreams originate from our actions and experience, and hold this kind of reflective potential, as do our waking lives. 

So I guess, back to that nutshell, I don't see dreams as a symbolic messages AND I think dreams are meaningful and this forum can be valuable.  Like figuring out Kaiser Sose - none of those clues "symbolized" Kaiser Sose or held an encrypted message that the killer was Kaiser Sose, but they were still meaningful and very much worth consideration.
(please, please stop me if you haven't seen the movie)

  I've just been trying to explain what I'm doing here, Moonbeam. I'm not the voice of symbolic dream interpretation, I just get drawn here when someone has a dream they think they can learn from.  I only sorta know why 

thank you for reminding us to look for the car keys on the key ring before checking the freezer. 
Most or all of us need reminding sometimes.


..... and Shellidifl - you mean to tell me your actually reading this!?!
(reality check)

[Shellidfl]

greg - yes, I am 
I enjoy reading a lot of these discourses, even if I am not as involved...
In a way, I seem to gleen things from this for my own life, kind of parallel to the arguments you have made defending your position with MB.
I, of course have my own views on what dreams do and are for, and I partially explained that in my previous post.  However, I am open to considering/reconsidering other options, hence my reading this.
Thanks for letting me live vicariously through this conversation!
And MB - I hope you did watch the movie - it was riveting right to the end!

[greg lousy]

Hopefully, the end of this conversation will be just as riveting - Moonbeam will say something.  I will drop my coffee cup on the floor in slow motion, having suddenly understood the exact nature of dreams.

[Sunshine]

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[greg lousy]

First, you should know that I'm half drunk, maybe two thirds - right now - bear that in mind.

  I'm pretty much suggesting that dreams are potentially meaningful, at least to the point of it being worthwhile to talk about the meaning. 
Like traveling by ice and not fire - so you knew this already? did it alter your self awareness or not really? You seem to have a clear interpretation at hand - does that dismiss the dream?

     All I'm arguing for is the "worth talking about" status -

  anyhow.... it is my hope that we here at MM can come to a deeper involvement in dreams than that suggested by the old "dreams as symbols" school of thought.  I end up in used book stores and libraries from time to time, and several times I have come across "dream dictionaries" or "dream guides" or the like - and so far every time I leaf through them, then I leave them there, thinking "this is kind of bullshit"

       

I think we're back to the beginning; the meaning is all in the interpretation itself.  That's why at least everybody says now that only the dreamer can interpret the dream, and nobody believes in some kind of freudian dream-dictionary anymore.  I can't disagree that dreams will show you things that you already know about yourself.

    well thats some progress at least, right?  I guess what I'm saying is this - lets suppose the meaning is entirely in the interpretation and the dream is just a jumping off point or fodder for meaning.... It has just seemed to me, in some of my dreams, that dreams have provided the perfect fodder.  At the very least the dreams are in some way connected to the meaning that arises later.  I absolutely agree that waking actions and feelings are also  connected to any subsequent discovery of meaning.

  Sorry for over using this Kaiser Sose thing, Its clearing up though - at least my take on dreams - to put it in a single sentence -
   Dreams are too direct to be understood as symbolic, and are meaningful in the same way that clues are, to a detective, not symbolic but still intensely meaningful.

     There was a professor in college, who said "whatever order you look for in the world, you will find it"
I think he was referring to the way we categorize phenomena into the structure of world views we've already decided on. 

Sometimes I think that my dreams responded in meaningful ways when I intended them to be meaningful, and that behind these meaningful encounters, the dreaming mind was laughing from a place beyond all meaning - just giving me what I apparently needed at the time.

    (like I said, I've been drinking a bit)

 

the anti-bullshit effort

   - do you remember the swearing in process? 

[Shellidfl]

greg - for someone who is/was 1/2 or 3/4 drunk, you are very intelligent in your arguement discourse.
When I am that far gone, I make total sense to me only

[Sunshine]

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[greg lousy]

   

I haven't disagreed with that.  If you think it's meaningful, it's meaningful.  But at the same time, don't you want to know what is meaningful about it?  Are dreams just reflections of what you already know, or are you actually learning something new?  Do people actually dream symbolically, and do the symbols represent something that you don't consciously know, or is that just something people say, leftover from otherwise discredited ideas?  It's getting to a higher level of self-knowledge.  Does that make sense?  (I'm not saying that there isn't a lot more to our minds than our consciousness--I just don't have any evidence that any of that information is being presented to us either symbolically or literally in what we recall in dreams, anymore than it is when we are awake.  Yes, people have insights, both awake and dreaming.  But those insights are recognized consciously, and you just don't know how they exactly came to be.)

  I feel I've explained how dreams don't have to be symbolic to be meaningful and to contain valuable information.  It gets complicated when I really try to think about symbolism and its role or lack thereof. I don't claim to have this figured out, but I would add that I think we respond to internal symbols in our waking lives. 
    As far as literal information being presented in dreams, what can I say?  We may be at an "agree to disagree" point here, because on a personal level, I feel I come across evidence very frequently.  Not evidence that would put this information "above" any waking life information, but enough for me to think that I should honor and accept both experiences as significant.

 

This is really what I'm getting at--looking for all the clues that reinforce what you already think about yourself is not going to help you change (if that is your goal), but instead will cause you to be more like what you already think you are.  However, if you make the opposite decision, for example, in this case, you could decide, "I am not a person who hides things", and then reinforce that by acting as if you are not a person who hides things, and not looking for reinforcing messages in your dreams about how much you hide things, and not otherwise convince yourself that you are a person who hides things, which causes you to hide things--over time, you will become a more and more a person who doesn't hide things.   (There is evidence for this; it's not just a vague feeling I have.  What you think you are, you become.  So if you want to change, change what you think you are.)

     
      If we became what we think we are, and it was really that simple, then there would be a hell of a lot more fantastic, selfless people running around wouldn't there?   You make a valid point, but take it too far.
  I know something about the evidence your referencing as a recipient of therapy and by working with children myself on a therapeutic level.  I know that this is a valid point and is central to cognitive and behavioral reconditioning, but it has nothing at all to do with dismissing the reactions and emotions your already having.  The shift in therapy that has grown from this evidence has lead to the practice of consciously experiencing and acknowledging difficult emotions or problematic thought patterns, then, in as full consciousness as possible, deciding to let them go, or coming up with healthier attitudes to replace them.
       And if your sort of referencing my example, but your not really doing it fairly.  If the DC I was talking about said "you always hide everything, you always hide things, you always hide things!" then yes, I would of woken up overly focused on this and it may have gone the wrong way - but instead I got a calm and nonjudgemental message. I woke up, followed through with it, and in doing so engaged in actually being more open and expressive, which could only have positively reinforced this behavior, as you seem to understand.

So regarding "knowing" that dreams have symbolic messages, or clues to how you "really are"; if you are using this for self-help, what if this introspection results in a vicious cycle, and actually hinders the process?  Wouldn't you want to know that? 

    If I start looking into my dreams as the sole rosetta stone of who I really am, then I sincerely hope you drive here in your truck and slap me in the face. I can usually recognize when I begin leaning too heavily on a certain area for meaning.  I can usually recognize when I am remaining in negative emotional space by continuing to focus on the negative feelings.  I had to do this because I was clinically depressed but unable to take antidepressants due to the risk of a manic episode.  Part of my process was acknowledging that I was playing an active role in my depression.  Now I generally become conscious of the point in time where I have the option of remaining in a depressive episode or getting out, and this has drastically reduced the duration of the episodes.

    Also, I actually had to do this with dreams.  I intentionally had to cool off with it because I recognized I was falling into the trap we've been talking about.  So yes, I know it could be a rabbit hole, but not really any more dangerous than any other of the infinite rabbit holes.  Incidentally, Wagonner mentions a similar period in his book - he had to lay off dreams all together for a bit.  Its something to keep an eye on, but I can't say I'm that worried. 
   
   

There was a professor in college, who said "whatever order you look for in the world, you will find it"
I think he was referring to the way we categorize phenomena into the structure of world views we've already decided on.

  (me)

That pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.

I know, (I've noticed you bring this up here and there  ). Have you noticed that understanding this doesn't make us immune?

No, it was too long ago.  It was before I even went to school, starting with that big family of catholic kids that lived down the street....

So you do remember a little... Were they pricks?


one more thing - I was thinking about your "fire and ice" dream, and it occurred to me that if I was asked to name the people at MM who post with the most passion, your name would be near or at the top of a short list

[Sunshine]

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[greg lousy]

I don't know that we are disagreeing, except maybe on the point of whether the "information" is actually new information; something you wouldn't have or haven't already thought about consciously.

I don't know about that either, and I can't say I've ever considered a dream and come out with anything radically new like "Oh my God I was adopted!" or anything.  I think there can be value in merely rearranged information, or information in a different light.  I would only add that if there were "new" information, it would likely elude us anyhow because of the kind of conditioning of our consciousness we've been discussing.

Do you think everybody thinks of themselves as selfless and fantastic?  I don't think so.  Since we are talking about self-help, if they do think that, they don't have a problem.  I'm not taking it any further than this:  if there is something about your behavior or reactions that you want to change, it helps to think of yourself as the kind of person who behaves or reacts they way you want to, rather than dwelling on thoughts like, "Why do I always do this particular bad/dumb thing?  What is the cause of this problem I have?", etc.  The "why" is irrelevant to changing it, and thinking those thoughts actually reinforces the thing what you are trying to change.  I'm not saying you can overcome severe biochemical problems just by thinking the right thoughts, or anything like that.

I think the "why" may help, but I agree its not central or imperative, and a lot of that evidence you mentioned illuminates the dangers of dwelling.... not everybody, but I do know some people who think of themselves as selfless and fantastic.... and that doesn't seem to help matter much...

Yes I imagine it could go either way.  If you are thinking about that consciously, then you have a dream that you interpret to be a manifestation of the thing that was bothering you while you were awake, it doesn't automatically mean that you are just reinforcing that perception of yourself and making it harder to change.  I just thought that might be a possibility, based on the things I have read about how your self-perception (conscious or unconscious) drives your actions.

I agree that its a possibility

I think all this stuff especially applies to people who have mental or emotional problems (and maybe that's everybody, but some more than others), and of course those are the people who are going to be attracted to things like interpreting their dreams in the first place.

  Maybe so, but I would add that I started looking into my dreams with more of a sense of excitement and interest rather than thinking of them as a way to fix myself.  Of course, I also happen to have emotional problems 

It sure helps a lot to be aware of it, don't you think?  Of course you can't eliminate it, but knowing about it helps you be more objective, or at least recognize when you are doing it sometimes.

    It definitely helps to recognize this tendency. The only danger is thinking that this is something that your free of once recognized. The skill is in constantly catching yourself doing this and stepping back.  I have done this numerous times in our discussions, and I'm sure there are times when I have failed to do this.

Uh-oh, I'm self-deluded!    All this stuff about we are who we think we are, it doesn't really explain how some people have such an obviously mistaken view of themselves.  But maybe that's the tendency of people to always think they are better than they really are in so many ways.

well, your passionate about rationality.  An ice cube on fire.. or something.  And yes, I think thats the tendency of people, at least young people. I think the world has a way of fixing that, maybe overly so.

Lol no, they were nice kids, and I played with them a lot.  But they had a simple-minded way of referring to god a lot, like god was always doing something like watching them or whatever, and it was the first time I remember being aware of how some people thought really silly things.

so you were rational right out of the gates!  Were your parents rational?

I should probably ban myself from the dream interpretation forum.  I'm sure people don't come here for a lecture on how they are doing it all wrong lol.

I admit I have at times gotten a kick out of your appearances here - kind of like an atheist at the Vatican.  But you've always remained respectful and even here you waited for me to show willingness to really get into it. I appreciate your thoughts. 

I like your phrase the "literal" interpretation of dreams - I'll take that with me, you know, for when I start my cult...

[Sunshine]

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[greg lousy]

hmmm....   L. Ron Hubbard? if so, its funny he actually said that.  Ever read "Cats Cradle" by Vonnegut? It reminds me of the religion Boka Maru in the story, the first page of the holy text warns that everything that follows will consist of lies.

   Can't really write - my computer had gotten its fourth or fifth afterlife, enabling this thread and now it is surely fried.  I'm at work now.

   Your right - "literal interpretaion" is a weird phrase - "literal approach" maybe, something more open

[Sunshine]

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