Author Topic: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.  (Read 7934 times)

Offline mentalenforcer

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2013, 08:27:05 PM »
Here's a question for Moonbeam and Maria, (and Hukif, PJ, and Mu if they perchance stop by)

lets say, you are the dreamer in LaBerge's 10 second experiment.  Your sleeping in his lab. You find yourself in a month long time dilated lucid dream. Once your well into it, say a week, you remember that LaBerge is waiting for you to measure out what feels like 10 seconds, and signal the beginning and end time to him with prearranged eye movements.  So you do it the best you can. What would you think the result would be?  Do you think it'd be close to about .04 seconds, which is about how the math works out if you were experiencing a month in 3 hours - about one dream cycle? (ignoring the problem that it'd be impossible to send clear eye signals in that short time span)

         I know I'm asking for speculative guesswork here, but humor me.

I've not had the full-on time dilated dreams yet.  One I had in the last few years covered a span of a couple weeks plotwise, but felt no more than half an hour in dream time, the way a movie would.

However, I had one dream in the past year or two that is relevant to this experiment.  During the dream, I was in a room where someone shot a gun (or some other fast projectile weapon).  I had a palpable sense of manipulating time, which I felt for the extent of the short dilation.  I proceeded to walk calmly across the room, faster than the projectile, slowly glancing once to each side.  As I did, I saw a giant parenthesis-shaped white flash first on one side of my field of vision, then the other.  It felt closer, or more immediate, than the dream scene.  After this dream, I had flashes in my vision from time to time, including several other dreams for the next 1-3 months.  I got myself checked out by an eye doctor who didn't find anything wrong, and the flashes did stop.  My best understanding of what happened is that the slow glances in the dream equated to ridiculously fast ones in the physical world, and that my eyes were subjected to something like this:


The dilation in that dream was short.  Probably less than 10 seconds experienced in what would have been much less physical time.

Offline howitzer

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2013, 09:00:07 PM »
mentalenforcer! that's a wild experience.
So you never had the flashes before that dream?



The skips, as you call them, were not recognizable until after they we're observed upon waking up, not during the dream. Nothing like a movie where you jump to another scene and time.

So MM, What IS time dilation in your own words?

A subjective time experience. That's what I'm beginning to believe this should be labeled.

Not even true time dilation is it? Doesn't there have to be an observation (outside observation) rather than just ones own speculative measure of any given amount of time?
All occurrences can't be accounted for in a dream..... or real life. During the course of a month week or a day.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 09:07:37 PM by howitzer »
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Offline mentalenforcer

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2013, 09:26:16 PM »
mentalenforcer! that's a wild experience.
So you never had the flashes before that dream?

That dream was the first time, and the most intense.  It seemed to be the cause.

Offline mentalenforcer

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2013, 09:28:38 PM »
What is the transition back to the physical world like, for those who spend months or years away?  Is it disorienting?  Does it take awhile to remember what was happening?

Offline Sunshine

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2013, 10:57:23 PM »
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Offline greg lousy

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2013, 04:42:22 PM »
Wow Mental, I've never heard of such a real waking life consequence from a dream.

reading about MB's dream makes me think I may have had a couple in the kind of ball park we're talking about, I just didn't get nearly as deep into it as some others.

especially this
Quote
I wasn't really controlling anything about the dream, but just going along with the story

   The story and meaningful aspects of the dream seemed to be in overdrive.  The creative aspect of the SC provided more raw experience than in say, 20 or 30 of my "normal" lucids.  In particular I'm thinking about one where I started at a party, became lucid, then left, met a girl I recognized as my dream daughter.  We stayed up all night making pastel drawings in someone elses house.  then in the morning, this Sandra bullock looking woman came home with her boyfriend.  She was the girl's mother and we had this long and difficult process of figuring out what to do.  I ended up beginning a new family with her and our daughter, but her old boyfriend was still there, just in a different role.  it ended with us driving away towards some kind of new life and some theme song was playing in the background as things wrapped up. I remembered every detail and even learned the song on guitar upon awakening.

      Everything was so meaningful and profound feeling that to attempt anything like a "dream task" would have seemed like an absurd thing. I've had two others of this kind of caliber, (the first one of which is the one that inspired me to come to Mortal Mist in the first place!) When I describe them to people, I don't even like to refer to them as 'dreams" because that already gives people the wrong idea about such an experience.

     So the narrative was about 12 hours with no skips or breaks.   I didn't feel like I had lost any time upon awakening, and the events could conceivably fit into 3 hours (though I don't know if I would have thought this if I didn't have certain psilocybin experiences to draw from), so I didn't really question the issue of time dilation.  I think if I was in LaBerge's experiment, like in my question, I could have counted a fairly accurate 10 seconds.  
    
     But thinking about it yesterday, something Hukif said in the last thread struck me, something like how he "compresses time in his body".  By the end of the dream, I FELT exactly like I had been up all night having profound experiences.  Mentally too, I was spent. I just wanted to rest, which in this case, meant waking up.


         ....  so here is what I'm getting at - and why I asked that last question.  I think that its conceivable that someone could experience a time dilated dream  AND count out an accurate 10 seconds in the midst of it, because I think we are talking about a rare and profound type of brain state that is hard to even discuss with our usual ways of talking about this kind of thing.
     Creative dreaming aspect of the mind on fire.  Time related mental processes affected in powerful and strange ways that could even contradict one another. Experience and meaning related parts of the mind also on fire. Or whatever.. different parts on fire at different times for different dreamers - this is just my example.   On top of all that, we then must remember and piece together the experience in our more usual capacity if we want to process the experience later, when we may not even be able to relate to the extraordinary mind state anymore. - kind of like if, say, a computer functioning like a quantum computer for a brief time, then going back to binary.  

    I think we're talking about mind states more different than the usual dream state than the usual dream state is to the usual waking state.  We're talking about mind states profoundly different than even the more usual types of lucid dreaming states.

And the month long dreaming mind is probably just as different from the kind of thing I experienced, but I may be getting a sense of direction at least, if I'm not completely off, which I may be, because like I said, I'm pretty much in binary mode right now, scratching around in the dark.

   I'm not pretending to understand or even relate to a month or year long type dream, but I think I've got them at least pegged into a kind of "family" of dreams - namely - the ones that occur when our minds profoundly and inexplicably depart from the scheduled programming.
      
       In lucids, I think its possible to give our minds a kind of "permission" to try on all kinds of different hats and rearrange themselves.  States that are simply not options for the waking mind, because who the hell knows what would happen then? We've spent too many thousands of years evolving for our minds just to start shuffling the entire deck willy nilly.  But if its "only a dream"  well why the hell not.
        
        

........ and I cannot find my way back to the sea, but the saltiest sea knows its own way to me    -   Joanna Newsome

Offline Sunshine

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2013, 12:24:41 AM »
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Offline howitzer

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2013, 12:35:56 AM »
Just think of it as "time flies when your having fun " likewise it drags when something sucks. Gets distorted when something is profound.

A crappy 8 hour shift could drag on for what seems to be forever, however it is still eight hours.
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Offline Zhon

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2013, 02:25:21 AM »
Just think of it as "time flies when your having fun " likewise it drags when something sucks. Gets distorted when something is profound.

A crappy 8 hour shift could drag on for what seems to be forever, however it is still eight hours.

Or a 4 month college semester can seem to pass in a couple weeks, leaving you wondering where all that time went.  Or a moment of profound happiness, or sorrow, or any other powerful emotion, can make time seem to stand still altogether.  And that's just when we're awake. 

Dreams amplify what can be done in reality, tremendously so in some cases.  If the passage of time can be perceived as flowing differently at different periods in a waking day, then time can pass in even more different ways when asleep.  You can live a whole lifetime in a single night, or you can watch something happen around you extremely slowly with the only thing moving at "normal" speed being your awareness of the event.

Offline greg lousy

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2013, 03:55:26 AM »
Quote
Laberge only showed that the mind works at about the same speed when sleeping as when awake.

... and we're talking about cases where it clearly does not, right? that's why its relevant to me.

   In your dream, ok, lets say you had a photographic memory, would you then have a full month worth of details to record?  If so, wouldn't that necessitate a whole new mind speed to process all that?  This is exactly why I asked that last question (still unanswered  :aintcool:) about the timing.  In my current state, right now, I could never count to ten, maybe have a couple of thoughts as well, in .04 seconds.

   Or are you saying there was a more normal amount of dream content only your feeling of time was profoundly altered?

(I'm asking openly with no preconceptions)

  I'm not trying to argue about other people's subjective feelings and memories of time, because that would be absurd.  I'm just trying to figure out if their minds were in fact about 200 times more active than usual, which is what would be implied in the most straightforward interpretation of experiencing a month in a few hours.  That's why this conversation is about more than subjective experience.  That's why I'm taking it kind of serious. 

   I know what Howitzer and Zohn are saying and that's part of it too.  If I went and put my hand on my stove for an hour, it would take forever, but my clock would still be intact, I think I could still count out  a pretty accurate 10 seconds, especially if, say, my doing so would result in the stove being turned off, I do, after all, have gas burners.

 
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Offline Snaggle

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2013, 06:56:29 AM »
  There are two mistakes being made in this thread. One that the passage of time is subjective-it does not matter how fast one feels time is passing, to be genuine time dilation one has to have the experience in the dream of time passing normally, while the dream time is sped up versus real time. The mind is not limited to real time in dreaming any more than it is limited to real objects or space-in theory it certainly should be able to pull off the trick of having sped up dream time seeming to pass as real time.

  The other is a mistake that Laberge first made and others are repeating. He assumed that consciousness is limited to one consciousness and that the dreaming consciousness was the one responding to him in his experiments. Many of our forum members has had more than a single consciousness active at the same time in dreams. I also sleep talk intelligently (darn it) and while I'm talking or making other sounds in the real world I can be in a lucid dream with no contact to the real world. In sleep talking I'm sometimes aware that I'm talking, but might or might not be aware of what's being said. I was also screaming in agony in the real world as reported by two witnesses while I was in a pleasant lucid dream chatting with three dream beauties. It's not just people with multiple personalities who can have multiple consciousnesses performing separate actions at the same time.

Offline bluebird

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2013, 07:48:24 AM »
Quote
Laberge only showed that the mind works at about the same speed when sleeping as when awake.

... and we're talking about cases where it clearly does not, right?

I don't know if that's the case. There's no reason to believe that the mind would work at a different speed (although it might), what Moonbeam is saying is that your mind could work at the same speed and you could feel like time is passing normally, yet that is just how you subjectively see time, and it might really be passing a lot slower, hence time dilation. Although I think the concept of the mind working at a certain "speed" is one we should try and avoid using really, as the mind is so powerful and only uses a fraction of it's power I don't think it really has a speed, I think it can process everything so quickly that the speed is negligible.
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Offline Sunshine

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2013, 11:16:48 AM »
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Offline greg lousy

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2013, 05:54:40 AM »
Quote
If there were a way to analyze something like the amount of information in dreams and compare them, it might be that the extended-time dreams really have no more information than any other long, detailed lucid.  If I had to bet, I would bet that is the case.

   For some reason I was thinking that you were on the other side of this one, betting that these dreams were inception style information juggernauts.  This, and your other responses actually clears up quite a bit for me.  - as much as clarity as I can reasonably expect without experiencing such dreams.  I guess it took me a while to find the right questions. 

  .. and yes, counting would be one of the all time crappiest ways to spend a lucid.

Quote
  The other is a mistake that Laberge first made and others are repeating. He assumed that consciousness is limited to one consciousness and that the dreaming consciousness was the one responding to him in his experiments. Many of our forum members has had more than a single consciousness active at the same time in dreams.

        .... wasn't there something in one of these lucid dreaming books about hypnotized people?  something about how part of their mind is aware of their being hypnotized and can talk reasonably about it even when the subject is completely under, thinking they're Elvis and whatnot?  I want to say Wagonner....

      ...  of course you could question the consciousness of hypnotized elvis, or the sleep talker, or most of what generally goes on .....


....  I think this thread did actually influence a dream of mine last night - I was playing Galaga for an unusually long time - I was about to get to the kill screen. I can remember like eight distinct levels.
........ and I cannot find my way back to the sea, but the saltiest sea knows its own way to me    -   Joanna Newsome

Offline Sunshine

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Re: Time dilation in Lucid and Non-Lucid dreams.
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2013, 08:35:46 AM »
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