09a Question: Why don't induction techniques don't work for me?

[Burned up]

OK I'll start.

My LDs are random events and usually short-duration.

I have never been able to WILD, MILD, DILD or anything like that.  Not a single induced lucid.  Ever.
The more I try, the worse my recall gets so I'm reluctant to try hard at all (and won't for a short while).

Could it be that I will never have an induced LD?  Any top tips?

[Seeker]

OK, you've really got two related, but separate issues here, so let's talk about the separately.

OK I'll start.

My LDs are random events and usually short-duration.
Could it be that I will never have an induced LD?  Any top tips?

First off, everyone is an individual and different.  Some are natural LD'ers, some are not.  Myself, I am a poster child for lucid dreaming.  Unless I really work at it, I just don't have many, perhaps you are like me. 

I'm sorry I don't know this, but how long have you been working at it?  Also, I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

1)   What time of the night do you have LD's?
2)   What is your sleeping environment like?
3)   What time do you go to bed and how much sleep do you get?



I don't know, how long have you been working on LD?

I have never been able to WILD, MILD, DILD or anything like that.  Not a single induced lucid.  Ever.
The more I try, the worse my recall gets so I'm reluctant to try hard at all (and won't for a short while).

This is a new one on me, I've never heard of induction methods causing problems with recall.  Usually, the opposite is true.  I have a hunch though that what you are doing or your mental state or anziety level is causing the problem.  Let's try an exercise.

For the next days, while doing your induction techniques, try to keep detailed notes.  Keep up with the technique you are trying, your mental state, anxiety level and so on.   Also at night, log what time you try the technique, the time you go to bed, and any times you get up during the night.  You can keep all of this in your bedside or bathroom dream journal if you wish.

I hope with a little more information, we can find some clues.

[Burned up]

OK, you've really got two related, but separate issues here, so let's talk about the separately.

OK I'll start.

My LDs are random events and usually short-duration.
Could it be that I will never have an induced LD?  Any top tips?

First off, everyone is an individual and different.  Some are natural LD'ers, some are not.  Myself, I am a poster child for lucid dreaming.  Unless I really work at it, I just don't have many, perhaps you are like me. 

I'm sorry I don't know this, but how long have you been working at it?  Also, I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

1)   What time of the night do you have LD's?

Usually at the end of sleep or when dozing before finally getting up.

2)   What is your sleeping environment like?

Me and Mrs Bu in a double bed.  Generally quiet.

3)   What time do you go to bed and how much sleep do you get?

1100-1130pm usually.  7 or even 8 hours typically.  Rarely in one stretch.  Usually wake at least once (which is good for recall).

I don't know, how long have you been working on LD?

"Working" is perhaps an over-statement.  I've been trying on and off for 6 months or so but more determined during May.

I have never been able to WILD, MILD, DILD or anything like that.  Not a single induced lucid.  Ever.
The more I try, the worse my recall gets so I'm reluctant to try hard at all (and won't for a short while).

This is a new one on me, I've never heard of induction methods causing problems with recall.  Usually, the opposite is true.  I have a hunch though that what you are doing or your mental state or anziety level is causing the problem.  Let's try an exercise.

For the next days, while doing your induction techniques, try to keep detailed notes.  Keep up with the technique you are trying, your mental state, anxiety level and so on.   Also at night, log what time you try the technique, the time you go to bed, and any times you get up during the night.  You can keep all of this in your bedside or bathroom dream journal if you wish.

I hope with a little more information, we can find some clues.

Thanks Seeker.  I'll do that.  I'll stick with DILD where I think I may stand a chance catching what I call a "WTF moment".  I'm trying to RC every time something weird or coincidental happens IRL.  My attempts to RC are pretty bad during the day and non-existent in dreams (apart from when I already know I'm lucid).

[iadr]

My LDs are random events and usually short-duration.

Have you considered trying any supplements like galantamine?
Before I started using galantamine my lucids which usually lasted about a minute or two, and I usually had no control.
With galantamine though I've been able to have lucids lasting up to 2 hours with perfect control and mind set of what I want to do.
The supplements just make me aware that I am dreaming.
You just have to find the right combination, because too much of it can keep you awake all night.

[dallyup52]

Galantamine is very powerful

[Burned up]

Thanks guys, but I'm a bit nervous about that.

[dallyup52]

Posted by: Burned up
 
Thanks guys, but I'm a bit nervous about that.

And it shouldn't be taken lightly, IMO. 

However, why that said, I have taken multiple doses 5-6 years ago and then again with in the last several months and I think that I have benefited greatly from the experiences.  It has helped my life in general and my ability to go OBE and Lucid.  I often fell tired and groggy in the morning when I add the extra Choline.  Other than that I have not noticed any side effects. 

At least I don't remember any. 

Yuschak's book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming, the Power of Supplements" is an excellent read.  $5 download from lulu.com

There is a bit of research on Galantamine since it is being used for Alzheimer's patients to help them retain memory function. 

[iadr]

Thanks guys, but I'm a bit nervous about that.

It's definitely something you would want to research thoroughly before trying Burned up, and even after researching it, it would be best to start out with a very small dose if you decided to try it at all, because the first time I tried it, after having thoroughly researched it, I started with a small dose, and stil felt like I was going to blown right off of my bed because it was so strong.

And then there were the many times after taking it I became aware to find myself floating out of my body face down about a foot above my bedroom floor.

And then came the times when I start hearing voices, very nerve racking at first, until I finally learned that they were just an indication that I was close to the other dimension, and that if I just concentrated on floating when I started hearing them, that I would float out of my body and get away from the voices, and be able to enjoy an out of body experience.

And lastly, less than a week ago when I used it, I got sleep paralysis for the first time in about 30 years, again quite scary since I felt it was caused by the galantamine, so was unsure how long it might last.  I was able to to concentrate on floating and float out of my body once I achieved that state though.

Supplements are certainly nothing to be taken lightly, and are probably best if used after a person has already experienced a lucid dream or obe a few times since they could just scare the crap out of someone who is not ready for an experience like they can provide.

 

[dallyup52]

Back to why induction methods don't work. 

It's possible that they do work and we might just not remember the experience.  I know that is true for me sometimes since I think that it has failed only to have the memory come up later in the day.  All those reasons to work on recall, if remembering the experiences is important to you.  I maintain that memory is overrated.

Also, remember that every induction method that you have ever read about or heard about is someone else's induction method.  Your induction method may be entirely different.  Maybe you need the light on or to have had sex ten times that week, or to have eaten fatty foods that are processed, or be in a bad relationship.  Some don't have the experience of getting out of their bodies until they have a heart attack.

I am getting a little extreme here but my point is that you will have a unique method of getting lucid or OOBE that is yours. It may resemble a method that I have and it may not.  Experiment.  Enjoy the process.

[annsie]

You have to be extremely careful with medication that can alter the brain function as one can never be sure what effect it will exert on ones brain and therefore psyche.

Galatamine is used to treat the cognitive defect in Parkinson disease and recently is being trialed to treat the same in schizophrenia. However, in some patients, it has been found to induce psychosis and hallucinations, not unlike those of a schizophrenic nature.

If you have any risk factor of possible mental illness such as past experience or family history then you need to be doubly careful. Wrong use of Galantamine and other similar medication can trigger whatever latent mental illness to develop and once its developed, you will be stuck with it.

Personally, I dont like using any drug/med to achieve these experiences. If I can not achieve them using natural methods like deep meditation and visualisation,etc. then I will simply accept that I am not meant to experience them yet.

[dallyup52]

Galatamine is used to treat the cognitive defect in Parkinson disease and recently is being trialled to treat the same in schizophrenia. However, in some patients, it has been found to induce psychosis and hallucinations, not unlike those of a schizophrenic nature.

Annsie,

Do you know the kind of dosages being used in these studies?  I thought that they were quite high relative to what some of us have been taking. (4-8mg every week or two). 

Could the psychosis and hallucinations you are referring to also be called Lucid Dreaming and Out-of-body travel? 

If you have the references I would like to read them.  Do you have any personal experiences with these studies?  I do not meant to attack your information, just get to the bottom of it.  I also have a concern about fooling with the brain chemistry as anyone should.

[annsie]

Galatamine is used to treat the cognitive defect in Parkinson disease and recently is being trialled to treat the same in schizophrenia. However, in some patients, it has been found to induce psychosis and hallucinations, not unlike those of a schizophrenic nature.

Annsie,

Do you know the kind of dosages being used in these studies?  I thought that they were quite high relative to what some of us have been taking. (4-8mg every week or two). 

Could the psychosis and hallucinations you are referring to also be called Lucid Dreaming and Out-of-body travel? 

If you have the references I would like to read them.  Do you have any personal experiences with these studies?  I do not meant to attack your information, just get to the bottom of it.  I also have a concern about fooling with the brain chemistry as anyone should.

I can get the references for you on those studies, which ones are you interested in ?

The usual dosage for Alzheimer and Parkinson is 4 mg twice a day to a maximum of 12 mg twice a day. Elderlies and those with kidney/liver impairment will need a reduced dose. The dose for Schizophrenia is between 8 mg to 12 mg twice a day.

Symptoms of overdose may include:

- muscle weakness or twitching
- upset stomach
- vomiting
- stomach cramps
- drooling
- teary eyes
- increased urination
- need to have a bowel movement
- sweating
- slowed, fast, or irregular heartbeat
- lightheadedness
- dizziness
- fainting
- slowed breathing
- collapse
- loss of conciousness
- seizures
- dry mouth
- chest pain
- hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)

I dont think the psychosis and hallucinations experienced as side effects by these patients are LD or OBE as they occur during waking hours and they wont stop in some cases until treated with antipsychotics.

As you said, the dose taken for these conditions is higher but 8mg is considered a therapeutic dose on its own. For the dose to produce results its obviously high enough to exert changes in the brain. The question is : how well does your brain "recover" in between dosing? Its like cigarette smoking, some people can smoke all their lives and nothing happens to them, yet others only inhale 2nd hand smoke occasionally from someone else and develop cancer.

If you ask me what is the "safe" dose to take, I wont be able to tell you. What is safe for someone else may not be safe for you at all.

[dallyup52]

I dont think the psychosis and hallucinations experienced as side effects by these patients are LD or OBE as they occur during waking hours and they wont stop in some cases until treated with antipsychotics.

I would be interested in the studies that produced the individuals with the psychosis and hallucinations. I would be interested in the dosages and conditions and what the patients were being treated for in the study.

I do have the drooling and the knuckle dragging.

[Burned up]

This debate has really confirmed my reluctance to take what is, in effect, a recreational drug.  As for voices in the head - I have plenty of those already. 

[iadr]

As for voices in the head - I have plenty of those already. 

No, the voices are not in the head at all, they are from the other dimension when you get close to an obe, just like some people hear music and others hear loud booms, etc. 

You will hear those same voices or noises without taking galantamine if you are able to meditate deep enough.

And if you do, the best way I've found to deal with them is to just ignore them and concentrate on floating, because once you are out of your body, they will disappear, at least they do for me.

There is nothing wrong with sticking to natural means for learning lucid dreaming, and I would encourage everyone to first learn how to lucid dream naturally first before taking something else to help extend those lucid dreams.

These supplements are not for everyone as certain sites that sell them using long page ads that promise unlimited wealth and nightly sexual adventures would have people believe. 

They need to be used responsibly with the full understanding of what their side effects can be, which is why I try to warn people of what they might experience when using them.

That said, they are for me, because they've allowed me to do things that it would have taken me years to accomplish without them.