Lucid Dreaming and Psychopathy

[Naiya]

I've always had a big interest in the workings of a psychopathic/sociopathic mind. But something in my LDing recently gave me some sort of interesting insight.

Lucid dreaming can be a lot like being a sociopath.

Basically, I had a lucid dream, and I was just flying around as usual. Someone had been following me so I wanted to get them off my tail. Nothing really more than a game, I didn't feel at all threatened. In any case, I was perfectly willing to lie, cheat and steal my way into numerous situations without even a hint of guilt or regret. I took people's things when it was convenient, destroyed their property, and so on. The dream ended right before I was about to carjack someone. I didn't really care to harm them but I needed a car. It was getting inconvenient and too obvious to fly. It was basically just all a game to me. The DCs were just like sprites in a game, tossed aside or used for whatever I needed.

Since I began LDing with only the knowledge that "everything in dreams is your own mind," I never felt any worry about harming anyone/anything in a dream. I've since tried to distance myself from that belief and be good to DCs just as I would real people (this being a part of dream yoga). But sometimes I find myself going back to my old ways.

In any case, it's almost like in my dreams, I was the sociopath walking around all these unsuspecting DCs, just waiting to screw up everything for them for no good reason and with no feeling about it. What's interesting to me was, I feel like that particular experience made me feel just like what an actual sociopath might feel in real life. Which is to say, I felt plenty of emotions for myself, but everything else was nothing more than a cardboard cutout and something to keep me entertained.

[johnb]

Important topic! It's similar to the issue of the psychological effect of violent books, movies, TV, and video games. Could reading a book with a violent plot, watching TV or movie violence, or playing violent video games make someone a worse person? I think maybe it could, at least in some cases. Also, I think the effect would depend a lot on the type of violence. If a movie, for example, glorifies senseless violence against innocent people, that's very different from a movie in which good people resort to violence to defend themselves or others from people who are trying to harm them.

An LD is very similar to being immersed in the plot of a book, watching a TV show or movie, or playing a video game, because you're experiencing something that you know isn't real. But even if it's not real, it could still have psychological effects. An LD might even have a greater effect than a book, movie, TV show, or video game. Because during an LD the subconscious part of the mind is more active than the rational part. So the mind may be more open to being influenced, in either good or bad ways.

[DrTechnical]

Interesting post.

I guess there are a few ways to think about this one. For me, I often find that my Freudian ID seems to rule things. The Ego and Super-Ego are attenuated, and I want what I want.

I guess this should come as no great surprise. The dreamworld is somewhat dominated by right brained thinking. And with the left brain attenuated, logic and reason and rule (societal and so forth) become less relevant, less required to enforce.

[johnb]

Interesting post.

I guess there are a few ways to think about this one. For me, I often find that my Freudian ID seems to rule things. The Ego and Super-Ego are attenuated, and I want what I want.

I guess this should come as no great surprise. The dreamworld is somewhat dominated by right brained thinking. And with the left brain attenuated, logic and reason and rule (societal and so forth) become less relevant, less required to enforce.

What you're saying makes sense. The question is, could it be psychologically harmful to engage in sociopathic/violent behavior during an LD? I can see that it might, at least in some cases. But it could also have the opposite effect. Maybe it provides a safe arena for some people in which to act out their bad tendencies, thereby allowing them to behave better IWL. Or maybe it doesn't have much of an effect one way or the other. Really don't know, but it's an interesting question.

[Naiya]

I just wanted to say, I don't mean to pose any question of whether lucid dreaming can possibly cause someone to lean towards sociopathic behavior. From what I've researched, there seems to be a genetic component and there need to be some environmental factors early in development, where the person was unable to attach emotionally to another human being in their critical first two years of life.

I do agree with you john, that the question would be the same as blaming video games, TV, etc. Also, I think the actions in a lucid dream are more influenced by the dreamer and how they operate in their waking mind, rather than vice versa. I remember the story of the lucid dreamer who used his lucid dreams to rehearse his murders, and unfortunately the news story was blaming lucid dreaming...even though the guy had been a sociopath before lucid dreaming. :/

But anyway, I think that some lucid dreams can give insight to what it feels like to....well, not feel. If the conditions are right and the lucid dreamer merely sees everything as a part of their own mind, then they deny any reality of the experience, and also nothing they do has any consequences at all. No one would ever know about it, either. This is basically how a sociopath sees the world. Nothing is really very real to them, and they not only hurt others, but themselves, due to their impulsive behavior and lack of connecting actions to consequences. I'm wondering if the sociopathic brain has some kind of permanent damage to areas of the brain that are merely less active in some lucid dreams for normal people.

[johnb]

I do agree with you john, that the question would be the same as blaming video games, TV, etc. Also, I think the actions in a lucid dream are more influenced by the dreamer and how they operate in their waking mind, rather than vice versa. I remember the story of the lucid dreamer who used his lucid dreams to rehearse his murders, and unfortunately the news story was blaming lucid dreaming...even though the guy had been a sociopath before lucid dreaming. :/

Sounds like an interesting story. Did that really happen?! Hadn't heard about that.

But anyway, I think that some lucid dreams can give insight to what it feels like to....well, not feel. If the conditions are right and the lucid dreamer merely sees everything as a part of their own mind, then they deny any reality of the experience, and also nothing they do has any consequences at all. No one would ever know about it, either. This is basically how a sociopath sees the world. Nothing is really very real to them, and they not only hurt others, but themselves, due to their impulsive behavior and lack of connecting actions to consequences. I'm wondering if the sociopathic brain has some kind of permanent damage to areas of the brain that are merely less active in some lucid dreams for normal people.

Good question about whether a sociopath has damage to certain parts of the brain. And whether those parts are deactivated during an LD. No idea what the answer would be. Maybe being a sociopath is somewhat like being stuck in a never-ending LD.

[Shellidfl]

Not to throw a screw into this conversation, but these are my 2 cents:

I THINK I believe that when we are lucid, our DCs may be actual dreamers, or other beings from alternate realities.  For this reason alone, I don't do anything I consider as immoral or hurtful while I am lucid.  I don't want the Karma bus to come back and run me over. 

Obviously, I am not convinced of this premise, but that's kinda what I feel in my gut, and why a while back someone suggested destroying Earth as a goal, and I could not accept the challenge.

[Boadicea]

On the topic of whether or not to keep morals in LD's, I'd like to say that violent or immoral video games/books/movies don't necessarily make someone more violent/immoral, because those things are incredibly popular and not everyone is a murderer, but I believe that they can be destructively influential. A violent movie might not influence someone to hide in a dark alley and rob someone, but it might make them more "violent" in their attitude. I feel like dreams could be the same way. Not everyone is as easily influenced by these things, but especially since dreams feel very real I wonder if it might subconsciously influence you one way or another, whether or not you realize it. I suppose everyone is different, and it should be taken by each individual to watch themselves and decide if something influences them or not (i.e. noticing your tendencies changing based on a recently had dream habit).

In any case, it's almost like in my dreams, I was the sociopath walking around all these unsuspecting DCs, just waiting to screw up everything for them for no good reason and with no feeling about it. What's interesting to me was, I feel like that particular experience made me feel just like what an actual sociopath might feel in real life. Which is to say, I felt plenty of emotions for myself, but everything else was nothing more than a cardboard cutout and something to keep me entertained.

To get back on subject, I think your dream experience is interesting, Naiya. I think it could be very similar to the way a sociopath's mind works, as it is a condition of decreased awareness of reality where anything can happen in the eyes of the one who has it.

[johnb]

Not to throw a screw into this conversation, but these are my 2 cents:

I THINK I believe that when we are lucid, our DCs may be actual dreamers, or other beings from alternate realities.  For this reason alone, I don't do anything I consider as immoral or hurtful while I am lucid.  I don't want the Karma bus to come back and run me over.  

Obviously, I am not convinced of this premise, but that's kinda what I feel in my gut, and why a while back someone suggested destroying Earth as a goal, and I could not accept the challenge.

While I don't personally think it's likely DCs are other dreamers or beings from alternate realities, I still think it's a good idea as much as possible to not harm or get angry with them. Because they may still be real in the sense of representing real parts of you. So you may be harming yourself psychologically by harming them or screaming at them. By doing so, you may be losing an opportunity to learn more about yourself. For example, if an angry DC confronts you, maybe it's better not to become angry yourself, but to calmly talk to him or her and try to understand what's bugging him or her. Whatever it is, it's probably something that's actually bugging you. Maybe something important.

[johnb]

On the topic of whether or not to keep morals in LD's, I'd like to say that violent or immoral video games/books/movies don't necessarily make someone more violent/immoral, because those things are incredibly popular and not everyone is a murderer, but I believe that they can be destructively influential. A violent movie might not influence someone to hide in a dark alley and rob someone, but it might make them more "violent" in their attitude. I feel like dreams could be the same way. Not everyone is as easily influenced by these things, but especially since dreams feel very real I wonder if it might subconsciously influence you one way or another, whether or not you realize it. I suppose everyone is different, and it should be taken by each individual to watch themselves and decide if something influences them or not (i.e. noticing your tendencies changing based on a recently had dream habit).

I basically agree with you, Boadicea, but also wanted to say that the effect on an individual could depend a lot on how the violence and/or immorality is depicted in a video game, TV show, movie, book, or lucid dream. If bad behavior is shown as having no negative consequences for the perpetrator, that seems really bad. But if the negative consequences are realistically portrayed, that could actually have a positive effect. For example, consider the show Breaking Bad, one of the best shows in the history of television in my opinion. It depicts a lot of really bad behavior. But it also depicts a lot of negative consequences of that bad behavior, both on the perpetrators themselves and on their intended and unintended victims. I don't think that show would be likely to make many people decide to become illegal drug manufacturers or traffickers. Just the opposite. On the other hand, a show that just made criminal violence seem fun, sexy, and profitable, could cause a lot of harm. I can't think of a TV show that does that. But I think some video games do. Grand Theft Auto, for example.