I'm Not Really Awake Lucid Dream - INRALD

[Hazel]

Interesting theory... that's definately something to think about.

Not sure if I agree with it or not, though. I haven't had much experience with WILDing, but it seemed pretty real to me the few times I achieved it. Although, so do some dreams, so like you say, it's hard to tell. I'm looking forward to hearing more about this!

[pj]

WILDing has always seemed quite real to me as well - but likewise so did those times "laying awake" last week seem real.

I've had a lot of success with WILD over the past few years. . . or so it would seem.

[Sunshine]

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[pj]

Dreaming the transition - because you expect to experience it and you've incubated it.

It might also explain sleep paralysis and Old Hag - perhaps both of these happen when you are fully asleep and don't know or believe it.

[Sunshine]

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[pj]

What I mean is that laying there asleep yet "lucid" and not knowing it could be a most bizarre experience.  Perhaps SP and OH are both manifestations of unknown and unexpected lucidity?

I experienced sleep paralysis years before knowing what lucid dreams were. . . but then I experienced lucid dreams as well, and probably right along these lines, as the transitions seemed to happen from laying awake in bed.

[Sunshine]

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[Alex Lou]

Based on my experiences I have to disagree with you.  First of all, the definition of a WILD would be starting sleep in a lucid dream, correct?  Sometimes it only takes me moments to fall asleep or slip into SP.  There is no gap, no waiting still in bed and anticipating.  And if SP is some lucid-like dream without lucidity, then what about lucid SP?  I always have full awareness of what I'm experiencing when I have SP.  And what about the unintentional WILD?  Like the ones I used to have before I ever tried (or even heard of) getting lucid intentionally or knew the term "lucid dream"?

[DrTechnical]

I'm just getting around to this thread now PJ. Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, I agree completely with the hypothesis here. I think WILDS are a real phenomenon. I believe I have them. However, I have come to believe that the majority of what I characterize as WILDS are probably really DILDS.

Here's how I personally came to this theory ...

Most of my WILDS have me experiencing head and neck vibrations. I can turn this on at will sometimes. Well to me, this has to do with expectations rather than a transitional phenomenon. In other words, I'm already dreaming, I expect something (vibrations) to happen and it does.

I also believe most of my DEILDS fall into this category. I never really truely woke up. They're really FA's into another perceived WILD.

Sometimes the transition from awake to asleep is so incredibly subtle. As anyone who has every been in my DJ knows, most of my lucids start where I left off in my wakeful space ... right on my dream couch.

[Alex Lou]

Yes, I agree completely with the hypothesis here. I think WILDS are a real phenomenon. I believe I have them. However, I have come to believe that the majority of what I characterize as WILDS are probably really DILDS.

The way that you've tweaked the theory makes it acceptable to me.  I could believe that those of us seeking lucidity have DILDs that mimic WILDs most of the time.

I've only experienced the vibrations once and suspected that it was this community's theories about WILDs affecting my HI.  And when I used to read people's attempts to WILD on DV they'd all talk about "getting to" SP . . . and it didn't sound much like the real SP to me.  But I assumed they were imagining their expectations rather than dreaming.

[pj]

The subtle change in wording takes it from the absolute, which is what you were objecting to, Alex Lou.  And I agree - I worded the theory a bit too strongly.

There may well be (and probably are) real examples of true WILDing, but if they do exist I believe they are far more rare than we suspect, and that the vast majority of these experiences are really us dreaming about successfully WILDing.

[Luminous]

I believe WILDs are real and true. I know I have them, and I know that there are "gray zones" where I am neither awake nor asleep. When I experience vibrations and other bodily sensations, I know that I'm no longer awake, but in between wakefulness and REM. But, I'm fully conscious and aware of what is going on.

[pj]

How do you know though?  I mean REALLY know?

I "knew" that I was laying there awake, waiting for transition, until that moment when I found out that wasn't the case.

Let me restate this slightly then, in terms of your objection.

What if the real transition from awake to asleep happens way sooner than we think or are aware of it, and the transitional "signs" we have all come to expect are happening after we are already asleep and laying there lucid but not knowing it?

If that is the case, WILDing is in a sense true and real enough - we've just not been trained to recognize it early enough.  That is what I mean by the WILDing we all think we are experiencing not really existing.  The actual transition happens completely transparently, then we lay there and wait for those experiences we expect before we believe it.

[Alex Lou]

How do you know though?  I mean REALLY know?

We have no reason to think otherwise.  I understand that you do, but we don't share your experiences, suggesting that the frequency of this phenomenon is individual specific.  If I'm in the in between state that Lumi describes, and I remember something I have to do or the phone rings, I simply open my eyes.  It's not the same as waking from a dream.  Nor does it feel like a dream or an FA (I've been thinking about that "gray zone" and closely reexamining it as I experience it in the last few days).

If that is the case, WILDing is in a sense true and real enough - we've just not been trained to recognize it early enough.  That is what I mean by the WILDing we all think we are experiencing not really existing.  The actual transition happens completely transparently, then we lay there and wait for those experiences we expect before we believe it.

There are misconceptions about how long it should take to WILD.  The actual transition when falling asleep only takes a few minutes, max.  So that's how long it should take to WILD.


Sometimes I do try to WILD when I'm already in a non-lucid dream.  And I'm successful!  The transition is quick and effortless.  I'm thinking that you dream of laying in bed and waiting during WILD attempts because you're mimicking what you do when awake.  If I'm trying to WILD, I'm either successful or I enter non-lucid sleep.  I don't wait for them.  So if I WILD when already dreaming I end up dreaming of success.

[Alex Lou]

I hope that we're not done discussing this.  It was pretty interesting.  And potentially useful.

Although I don't catch myself dreaming of laying in bed when trying to WILD, I do sometimes dream of trying to sleep when I'm having trouble sleeping.  I think that's what happened last night.  I was just thinking about stuff and waiting for sleep, then I'm woken by my husband coming to bed.  I knew that just a moment ago I'd been thinking about the same stuff from when I first started trying to sleep, but it had been an hour and it did feel as if I woke.  If I wasn't completely asleep then I was very, very close to it.